Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[DeLorean]

I'm not sure what you're saying though? If this was a decision based on his ego, wouldn't he have stayed on and wanted to prove he could combine both roles effectively? Quitting was an admission that he called it wrong and wasn't capable of doing both roles the way he thought he would.

[GypsyBlackCat]

What chances does Keane keep 'undeservedly' getting though? It could definitely be argued that he'd done nothing to deserve the Sunderland job, but that worked out very well for them and he certainly did enough to warrant another job, at what was a lower level. Things didn't go too well at Ipswich so he's basically been demoted (or has demoted himself) to assistant manager roles instead of the main man, seems reasonable enough. This is the second job (amongst other things) that he's walked out on though so obviously that should, and probably will, count against him in the future.

In fairness, people seem to think Keane walks on water and can do no wrong. He did ok at Sunderland but it ended badly. For the money he spent and the players he got in didn't match up. As one local writer put it 'He paid Champions League money for Championship players.' After spending the best part of £100m you don't expect to be sitting second bottom of the PL. Plus he couldn't handle the egos and his coaching left a lot to be desired. Also his attitude. Ellis Short had every right to question Keane's performance as manager and he walked out. That should raise the question if he can handle the pressure. I can't imagine Ellis Short or Marcus Evans giving Keane a glown CV.

[DeLorean]

I certainly don't think he walks on water but I do think he did well at Sunderland. In fact, I think one would have to be pretty anti-Keane not to appreciate that. He spent the money he was given to spend, got promoted to the PL and kept them there. Any promoted club would take survival the following season and I think they finished 13th, albeit the margins were tight. It ended badly for sure but I'm simply talking about the job he did while he was there. I could definitely see why another Championship club would want him so I don't think that appointment was undeserved.

[GypsyBlackCat]

I certainly don't think he walks on water but I do think he did well at Sunderland. In fact, I think one would have to be pretty anti-Keane not to appreciate that. He spent the money he was given to spend, got promoted to the PL and kept them there. Any promoted club would take survival the following season and I think they finished 13th, albeit the margins were tight. It ended badly for sure but I'm simply talking about the job he did while he was there. I could definitely see why another Championship club would want him so I don't think that appointment was undeserved.

He took over a good squad of Champioship players and was able to spend good money to add to it. He did a good job to get SAFC promoted but that was about all. The thing that sticks in claw is the way he walked out. He spend big bucks on Ferdinand, McCartney, Cisse, Diouf, Tanio, Chimbonda, Healy and Malbranque during the summer but wanted more in January because they weren't good enough. When Short said no he had to sell to buy Keane got in a huff. That's the problem.

Ipswich took a chance and he failed despite spending good money on players like Leadbitter, Edwards and Martin to add to a solid Championship side. Not to many teams wanted him and it took him two years to get a job.

[DeLorean]

So he took over a good squad of Championship players, added to it, got them promoted and secured a decent Premier League finish. Managers are judged on their results and he got the results. Sunderland were a mess on the field when he took over so saying they had a good squad is one thing, but they weren't performing like they had a good squad. He bought some duds, no doubt. Sunderland haven't exactly kicked on since his departure and, who knows, maybe they'd still be struggling in the Championship had it not been for aul Keano.

Your last sentence I agree with, and that was basically what I was getting at when talking about Cascarino's comments.

[DannyInvincible]

What chances does Keane keep 'undeservedly' getting though?

Who's Cascarino to decide whether or not Keane is deserving of a particular role anyway? If the chairman of a football club or the board of an association feel he's fit for a particular role for whatever reason, be that purely because of his personality rather than due to any previous managerial record, than that's what matters. It's they who decide whether he's deserving of the role they're offering or not. The abilities and attributes Cascarino values are obviously different to those valued by people who keep giving Keane jobs.

[KK77]

He took over a good squad of Champioship players and was able to spend good money to add to it. He did a good job to get SAFC promoted but that was about all. The thing that sticks in claw is the way he walked out. He spend big bucks on Ferdinand, McCartney, Cisse, Diouf, Tanio, Chimbonda, Healy and Malbranque during the summer but wanted more in January because they weren't good enough. When Short said no he had to sell to buy Keane got in a huff. That's the problem.

Ipswich took a chance and he failed despite spending good money on players like Leadbitter, Edwards and Martin to add to a solid Championship side. Not to many teams wanted him and it took him two years to get a job.

I think John Giles called it right when he said Keane as a manager was a fairly poor judge of a player.

[GypsyBlackCat]

Who's Cascarino to decide whether or not Keane is deserving of a particular role anyway? If the chairman of a football club or the board of an association feel he's fit for a particular role for whatever reason, be that purely because of his personality rather than due to any previous managerial record, than that's what matters. It's they who decide whether he's deserving of the role they're offering or not. The abilities and attributes Cascarino values are obviously different to those valued by people who keep giving Keane jobs.

Cascarino is wrong that he keeps getting jobs. He was sacked by Ipswich in Jan 2011 and didn't get a job offer until November last year. But I think Cascarino has a point that Keane mightn't have what it takes to be a coach. It seems that a lot of chairmen didn't fancy giving Keane a job after Ipswich.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think John Giles called it right when he said Keane as a manager was a fairly poor judge of a player.

John would know, to be fair.

[DeLorean]

I think John Giles called it right when he said Keane as a manager was a fairly poor judge of a player.

I'd be surprised if Giles could name three Roy Keane signings. That's not to say he's wrong.

Cascarino is wrong that he keeps getting jobs. He was sacked by Ipswich in Jan 2011 and didn't get a job offer until November last year. But I think Cascarino has a point that Keane mightn't have what it takes to be a coach. It seems that a lot of chairmen didn't fancy giving Keane a job after Ipswich.

We don't really know for sure what Keane has or hasn't been offered post-Ipswich, I think he said in the book that he turned down a couple, possibly from abroad. Just because he didn't accept a managerial position until November 2013 doesn't mean he wasn't offered something, or at least approached. He probably needed a time out after Ipswich anyway. I can see where Cascarino is coming from, that Keane can mess up and still land on his feet, but I agree with Danny that it's not for Cascarino to say, just comes across like jealousy to me. I mean, for Keane to be offered a contract by the FAI, after all that went before, was pretty astounding. Villa and Celtic are two massive clubs to have offered positions as well, given his relative lack of success in management, and goes to show that a big personality/reputation can take you a long way.

[geysir]

Villa win their first game in ages
I really never saw what Keane offered as a pundit, apart from his one liner shock value popular quotes which went against the grain, his actual stock analysis was banal,mono dimensional and repetitive, therefore I do share Cas' wonderment at what people find fascinating about Keane in his post playing days, in regards to football analysis and coaching. Apart from that, I don't mind him.
He's not worth his salary for us. I'd prefer to have a character like Noel King in there as assistant and I'd say he could do with a decent salary.
It's not up to the FAI to sponsor Keane's apprenticeship as a manager and the odds are he'll not make the grade.

[DeLorean]

Well it was O'Neill that wanted him, not the FAI. Accommodating the manager with the assistant he choses is good practice I think, and their wages are being heavily subsidised by Denis O'Brien anyway so in that sense the figures are kind of irrelevant, crazy n all as they are.

[geysir]

The salary figures are not irrelevant just because there is a reputed 40% - 50% subsidy, the FAI still pay twice as much as is arguably appropriate for an association of Ireland's size. The subsidy also does not negate the gulf in inequality between what club managers earn in the LOI (at the bottom of the professional ladder) and the extreme high salary paid to the top pair, who are part time.
Keane may well be O'Neill's choice but it is farcical that an assistant manager of a small association commands a salary that's more than most managers in Uefa land and maybe more than all the managers in the LOI combined.
Keane doesn't even look like a proper assistant, where's his effin' clipboard?

[DeLorean]

It's not something that bothers me too much. We're not a big draw, if we have to pay a bit more to attract a high profile, proven manager and his chosen assistant, with a massively generous no strings attached donation then, within reason, so be it. I'm not sure what the LOI managers wages have to do with it?

[geysir]

It's not something that bothers me too much. We're not a big draw, if we have to pay a bit more to attract a high profile, proven manager and his chosen assistant, with a massively generous no strings attached donation then, within reason, so be it.

Other similar sized countries manage alright without having to pay a fortune to lure a manager, it's not the lack of lure that the irish job offers, that forces the FAI to pay out a fortune for a managerial team and one that just happens to manage average grade results.
If you're not bothered by the issue, then fine.

I'm not sure what the LOI managers wages have to do with it?

What is the relevance between a club football managers' salary in the domestic league which is under the control of the FAI and the FAI's representative team's management´salary?
I supposed that the mere example of the glaring inequality of the Intl manager earning 30 times what a manager does in the LOI, says something about the state of Irish football. That's my opinion about what I perceive to be a glaring dysfunction in Irish football, but that's another debate.

This current discussion is about Roy and Cas seeing him without any clothes and although Cas has always seen Roy like this, he does have a point. Eg. Roy as a pundit was banal yet he was lauded as being 'left field' etc.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I'm not sure what you're saying though? If this was a decision based on his ego, wouldn't he have stayed on and wanted to prove he could combine both roles effectively? Quitting was an admission that he called it wrong and wasn't capable of doing both roles the way he thought he would.

Not in his world. More like he p*ssed people off.
If he admits it fair enough, but don't hold your breath.

Though in latter years, he occasionally has a point re.the former.

[tricky_colour]

Why would anybody hang a picture crooked... my skin just crawled at the thought. In fairness though, it had more character the other way. A Tricky Masterclass.

I preferred it when it was full of spelling and grammatical errors.

[tricky_colour]

Why would anybody hang a picture crooked... my skin just crawled at the thought. In fairness though, it had more character the other way. A Tricky Masterclass.

I preferred it when it was full of spelling and grammatical errors.

Strictly speaking though shouldn't there be one thread for Roy and one thread for Martin?

I mean there is definitely a separate thread for Roy Keane so the question is which thread should you post in for a comment about Roy
Keane?

[Spudulika]

I'd be surprised if Giles could name three Roy Keane signings. That's not to say he's wrong.



We don't really know for sure what Keane has or hasn't been offered post-Ipswich, I think he said in the book that he turned down a couple, possibly from abroad. Just because he didn't accept a managerial position until November 2013 doesn't mean he wasn't offered something, or at least approached. He probably needed a time out after Ipswich anyway. I can see where Cascarino is coming from, that Keane can mess up and still land on his feet, but I agree with Danny that it's not for Cascarino to say, just comes across like jealousy to me. I mean, for Keane to be offered a contract by the FAI, after all that went before, was pretty astounding. Villa and Celtic are two massive clubs to have offered positions as well, given his relative lack of success in management, and goes to show that a big personality/reputation can take you a long way.

He was chased and offered the head coach position by the Turkish team Kasimpasa. They were in advanced talks but there was 1 sticking point....
He was approached by the former GD of Spartak Moscow in December 2012 - January 2013 to become head coach, turned it down...there was 1 sticking point.

The sticking point was the same, the position was "head coach", which means limited powers signing players and all that goes with it. He was right to refuse the latter, but the former....could have been nice.

[KK77]

John would know, to be fair.

I would disagree myself. I would feel it was just his two cents on it or should I say his opinion to which to be fair he is entitled to.