The Flag Issue/Cheist an Bratach/The Fleg Prooblum

[DannyInvincible]

I'll find it. Cheers.

I don't think that episode is online any longer, unfortunately.

Another thing; why do so many media hacks and the likes of Arlene Foster assume that Sinn Féin are bluffing on the call for a border poll? I think they're deadly serious and are up for the challenge. It's a debate to which I'm looking forward as they advance more solid arguments and proposals in the near future.

[DannyInvincible]

"PM welcomes united Ireland 'rejection'": http://www.u.tv/News/PM-welcomes-uni...a-0409e1013a10

The British and Irish governments have expressed the view that the time is not right for a border poll to be held, especially as tensions remain over the policy regarding the flying of the Union flag.

But Sinn Féin have continued to campaign for the public to get to vote on the future of Northern Ireland and whether or not it should remain part of the United Kingdom.

The DUP, who have suggested "calling their bluff" on the issue, made David Cameron aware of the findings of a BBC Spotlight survey during Prime Minister's Questions on Wednesday.

"I sometimes try and avoid opinion polls, so I haven't seen that one," Mr Cameron told DUP Lagan Valley MP Jeffrey Donaldson and the House of Commons.

"But it looks like one that will lift the spirits of almost everyone in this House, because we believe in a United Kingdom and we believe in Northern Ireland being part of that United Kingdom."

Whether or not tensions exist due to the flag issue, a border poll debate will always prove contentious and provocative, so I don't see why the pre-existence of deep-rooted tensions (that have long existed and will continue to do so well into the future) should be used a valid reason to postpone talk of it.

[Not Brazil]

The egos have landed.

Cracks deepen between Oor Willie and Footie over protests.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21366740

[Not Brazil]

Another thing; why do so many media hacks and the likes of Arlene Foster assume that Sinn Féin are bluffing on the call for a border poll? I think they're deadly serious and are up for the challenge. It's a debate to which I'm looking forward as they advance more solid arguments and proposals in the near future.

I'm certainly no PSF strategist, but they are calling for a Poll now - would they not have been better advancing more solid arguments and proposals (we've had nothing but fluffy old rhetoric from them so far) before seeking a Poll?

[DannyInvincible]

The egos have landed.

Cracks deepen between Oor Willie and Footie over protests.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21366740

Isn't the purpose of the Ulster People's Forum to, well, y'know like, prevent further splits within unionism/loyalism?...

I'm certainly no PSF strategist, but they are calling for a Poll now - would they not have been better advancing more solid arguments and proposals (we've had nothing but fluffy old rhetoric from them so far) before seeking a Poll?

Well, they've gotten people talking at least. Although I don't see why they'd just throw themselves in at the deep end without any oxygen. I see a new website has been set up to advance the case: http://unitingireland.ie/

Haven't had a detailed look through it yet though.

[Not Brazil]

Isn't the purpose of the Ulster People's Forum to, well, y'know like, prevent further splits within unionism/loyalism?...

Don't really know what it's purpose is - I thought it was more like a "self help" group, formed by "da peeeple", for "da peeeple" to deal with their paranoia issues.

[Gather round]

In what way does it constitute bigotry exactly?

Check out this first draft of his classic 'Death of a Nationalist':

Then one hot day when the Field was rank
With Buckfast in the grass the angry Prods
Invaded the Garvaghy; I ducked through barricades
To a coarse croaking that I had not heard
Before. The air was thick with a Lambeg chorus.
Right down the gross-bellied Prods were marching
On roads; their bull necks pulsed like sails. Some hopped:
The flute and accordion were obscene threats. Some sat
Poised like mud grenades, their blunt heads farting.
I sickened, turned, and ran. The great slime kings
Were gathered there for vengeance and I knew
That if I dipped my hand the Apprentice Boys would clutch it...

but the phrasing, "NI to be joined with the Irish Republic", might imply that NI was to be subsumed into the already-existing state south of the border. Maybe, maybe not... But perhaps people would look at the notion differently if the idea of a completely new, revamped united Irish state was proposed?

I doubt it. But let's see details of his new revamping if you have them. Is it a two-part federation? Or one of four? Or a merger with the lost city of Atlantis?

Another thing; why do so many media hacks and the likes of Arlene Foster assume that Sinn Féin are bluffing on the call for a border poll? I think they're deadly serious and are up for the challenge

Basically because Arlene, Noel and the dogs in the street know that the Brit Govt. isn't going to call a poll when recent opinion surveys show so little support for a change. So the Shinners don't need to back down on the issue and can just go on blaming Westminster.

The phrasing of the questions and the obvious bias in its reporting made the whole experience a mockery. I was ashamed by that programme last night

The questions seemed fair enough to me. On the border poll, it's two pretty straightforward alternatives.

The hacks shouting at each other isn't so edifying, but sure we're used to them by now?

That they used phraseology last used in the 70s in the setting of the survey shows the fear that was there within the BBC that there may have been a different result

Hardly. They used the same largely predictable preamble that's been associated with every election and opinion poll for 40 years.

Look- if the BBC were worried about the result- and why would they be, controversy helps ratings- they wouldn't have held it in the first place.

I'm still so angry at Noel Thompson for ignoring the obvious bigotry of the bumpkin Foster last night

I thought Noel made every reasonable effort to shut her up, as he did with Gerry and Danny. Anyway, less of the picking on people from the countryside. That's my job.

[BonnieShels]

I completely forgot I had said I would track down some Bumpkin-bigotry. I'll aim to resolve this over the weekend.

[DannyInvincible]

Hehe, is this a Freudian slip on the Statement of Persons Nominated for the upcoming Mid-Ulster by-election?:



More seriously, however, in light of Sinn Féin putting Francie Molloy forward, Nigel Lutton is certainly an interesting choice as the agreed unionist candidate. Of course, he is a cousin of the DUP's David Simpson and his former-RUC reservist father was shot dead by the IRA in 1979. In 2007, David Simpson, whilst protected by parliamentary privilege in the House of Commons, named Francie Molloy as having been involved in the killing. Molloy naturally denied any such involvement and subsequently challenged anyone to make such a claim outside the British parliament; the implication being that he would sue them. No further accusations were forthcoming. Nevertheless, the choice of Lutton appears to be an attempt to ensure not only that the plight of victims of the Troubles will be highlighted via the campaign - which is fair enough - but also that the death of Lutton's father will feature prominently despite an absence of evidence to incriminate Molloy, perhaps in order to stoke the dormant unionist vote.

[Gather round]

Molloy naturally denied any such involvement and subsequently challenged anyone to make such a claim outside the British parliament; the implication being that he would sue them

Not necessarily. Sinn Fein politicians accused of IRA membership or other crimes don't always sue following denial, whether because of the cost or worried what further publicity might reveal.

Nevertheless, the choice of Lutton appears to be an attempt to ensure not only that the plight of victims of the Troubles will be highlighted via the campaign - which is fair enough - but also that the death of Lutton's father will feature prominently despite an absence of evidence to incriminate Molloy, perhaps in order to stoke the dormant unionist vote

Unionists can't win- their combined vote in 2010 was 33%- so it's basically a stunt to annoy SF. Even though the Unionist vote will likely fall from that figure.

Still, if Francie and Patsy are worried, they could always bring in Keef Gillespie as a Nationalist Unity candidate.

[DannyInvincible]

Not necessarily. Sinn Fein politicians accused of IRA membership or other crimes don't always sue following denial, whether because of the cost or worried what further publicity might reveal

Maybe so, although it's important to remember that nobody has repeated the claim outside of the protective parliamentary bubble.

Still, if Francie and Patsy are worried, they could always bring in Keef Gillespie as a Nationalist Unity candidate.

Ha, indeed. What did you make of his media trolling?

[Gather round]

Like other enthusiasts for abolishing the NI team, he's either a bored sh*t-stirrer, daydreaming Shinner or dim enough to think that merging two weak football teams makes one much stronger basically by definition.

Sorry, not giving ye much new insight there...

[DannyInvincible]

'Jamie Bryson: UVF were not terrorists': http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/hea...ists-1-4827410

Ulster People’s Forum chair Jamie Bryson has caused outrage after claiming the UVF were not terrorists.

The prominent flags protestor, when challenged on the issue on Twitter on Monday night said he did not see loyalists as terrorists.

In a number of posts on his official account Mr Bryson said: “Loyalists were not terrorists. The IRA were the terrorists.” He then added: “I would not view the UVF as terrorists no.”

Twitter users expressed their disgust at the view, with some calling the Bangor man “scum”, “attention-seeking”, and one user saying “I almost feel sorry for you.”

Another user queried: “So those loyalists that murdered innocent Catholic civilians weren’t terrorists Jamie?”

Media commentator Alex Kane quoted Mr Bryson on Twitter, adding: “Try telling that to their victims and the families of their victims.”

Bizarre double standard.

[Charlie Darwin]

There is dangerous stupidity in this world, from all walks of life.

[Not Brazil]

'Jamie Bryson: UVF were not terrorists': http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/hea...ists-1-4827410

Bizarre double standard.

Replicated by those, some of whom sit in Government in Northern Ireland, who believe that the Provos were not terrorists, but that Loyalist paramiliary organisations (eg, the UVF) were.

[Charlie Darwin]

Is this really that surprising? Idealogues on both sides will always see their side as the "good" side and the other as the "bad" side.

[jinxy lilywhite]

one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.

to be honest when are the people of northern ireland going to wake up and stand up to the politicans that they deal with on todays issues, education, law and order, support for the sick, elderley and vunerable in society, question then on what jobs initiative they have and how they implement it, how that 14 or 16 year old bum on the street is going to get a job, an economy where 60% of the workforce are civil servants instead of religious & national beliefs because at the end of the days, ideals are all well and good but they dont pay any bills

[Not Brazil]

Messrs Bryson and Frazer have been arrested this morning, and are being questioned by the PSNI about organising and participating in unlawful parades.

[DannyInvincible]

Frazer has since been charged and faces three counts of taking part in an unnotified public procession and obstructing traffic in a public place. He's due to appear at Belfast Magistrates Court tomorrow.

[BonnieShels]

So Kia are incurring the wrath of Unionists with their Provo...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...reaking47.html