Debate - Future of Youth Development in Irish Football

[ontheotherhand]

Did we have a good track record of qualification pre-Brexit when our players were heading across to English academies? Looking at wikipedia it looks like we very rarely qualify for the Euros but this group of home based players has done it so we must be doing something right. Also looks like we have a lot of 15 year olds in the side compared to Poland. Would they even be at top European academies at this stage?

Speaking solely as a rovers supporter, our academy has also done very well in tournaments against European and English clubs. We won the Hale End Cup at u14 level without conceding a goal. So I'm not sure we don't have a few (far too few obviously) good options for kids at home at this stage. If I had a son playing at that level I'd be more in favour of him staying at home than heading off at 14/15 to Italy etc. We've probably lost more players than we've gained with that outsourced model. Definitely needs a lot more investment but we also need to keep these players at home and be paid a fee if and when they go or nothing will change.

[SkStu]

The only really, truly viable solution has been staring us in the face for the last 25-30 years. A few of us have been saying it for that long too. The overreliance on the children of our diaspora along with English youth systems to develop Irish born players as the only strategy to build our national team is coming home to roost. The investment in our domestic academy structures and our national league is the critical step in us having control over our fortunes and destiny as a senior national team. These domestic senior structures have to be seen as the preferred pathways for 90% of our youth to make a living career - and ideally a number of them will make the move to a higher standard league and ultimately make a difference to our senior national team fortunes. The other 10% - the best of the best - can still move overseas to the elite teams but, even then, in no world would sending 16 year olds to a foreign environment be the ideal solution. It has already seen the careers of many of our most promising youngsters fall apart and turned them away from the game completely where they were also without decent education or marketable skills. The odds will always be against them to make the breakthrough - whether it is in England or Italy.

Bottom line, in my opinion, is that it is not completely one or the other but the first pathway is critical, the return on investment will be significant and has to be built such that it becomes the default rather than the exception. If other countries - nordic, slavic etc - can do it that way, there is no reason why we cant.

[Eirambler]

The only really, truly viable solution has been staring us in the face for the last 25-30 years. A few of us have been saying it for that long too. The overreliance on the children of our diaspora along with English youth systems to develop Irish born players as the only strategy to build our national team is coming home to roost. The investment in our domestic academy structures and our national league is the critical step in us having control over our fortunes and destiny as a senior national team. These domestic senior structures have to be seen as the preferred pathways for 90% of our youth to make a living career - and ideally a number of them will make the move to a higher standard league and ultimately make a difference to our senior national team fortunes. The other 10% - the best of the best - can still move overseas to the elite teams but, even then, in no world would sending 16 year olds to a foreign environment be the ideal solution. It has already seen the careers of many of our most promising youngsters fall apart and turned them away from the game completely where they were also without decent education or marketable skills. The odds will always be against them to make the breakthrough - whether it is in England or Italy.

Bottom line, in my opinion, is that it is not completely one or the other but the first pathway is critical, the return on investment will be significant and has to be built such that it becomes the default rather than the exception. If other countries - nordic, slavic etc - can do it that way, there is no reason why we cant.

How long do you think that is going to take? Who is expected to fund it - the FAI is broke? Are you of the view that players should be being pushed towards staying here in a substandard system at this point in time, even though there are far better setups available to them in Europe?

[SkStu]

How long do you think that is going to take? Who is expected to fund it - the FAI is broke? Are you of the view that players should be being pushed towards staying here in a substandard system at this point in time, even though there are far better setups available to them in Europe?

If the elite academies in Europe are interested in them, they would be coming for them. Those that have are getting the players they want. Who exactly is standing in the way? Personally, I don't think it is ideal. Never have. When there is a success rate of <1% for professional footballers you have to factor the short and long term wellbeing of the youngster into what you think is best overall.

The long term solution is something along the lines of what i have set out in my post. It has to be. Its going to take a generation to catch up and if we dont start yesterday then we fall further and further behind. You should be calling for it to happen by any means necessary, not making excuses for why it shouldn't. Even limited changes and investment would make a difference in the short term. It arguably already has.

[pineapple stu]

For the most part the European based players you are listing there are from an era when our best went to England, so not really a fair comparison.

Why not? I think it shows that going to a European academy is far from being a panacea. (Some of the guys lived abroad so were basically staying at home by joining Benfica, Gladbach, etc)

I have no issue investing in domestic youth structures, in fact I'm all for it. But, once again, suggesting that our best young players are better off staying here instead of going into properly developed footballing setups abroad while our domestic setup remains in its current state is just nonsensical to be honest.

But you're still ignoring the point of going into an increasingly full-time senior setup at 18 rather than a foreign academy. That's a big difference for me.

And today we're seeing an early example of the consequences of that on the pitch.[/B]

In the 2017 finals, we lost 7-0 to Germany. That squad included Collins, Idah (domestic-based at the time), O'Connor, Connolly and Gavin Kilkenny. Is today's result really a consequence of Brexit, or is it just a bad defeat like we've had before?

One other thing worth noting is that the LoI has actually done reasonably well in the Youth League. UCD lost on penalties to a Molde side with Haaland and Ostigard. Cork (with Ogbene) beat HJK and gave Roma a proper game (they were 2-1 down with two minutes to go and had to go chasing the game; got picked off twice). Bohs lost to PAOK by a single goal, and were ahead of Midtylland on away goals with 35 to go. These are big clubs - group stage regulars at senior level - and far better results than you'd expect at senior level. Is the academy setup all that bad?

[CraftyToePoke]

If the elite academies in Europe are interested in them, they would be coming for them. Those that have are getting the players they want. Who exactly is standing in the way?

Nothing and nobody stopping them at all.

Maybe we need to ship batches of them over & say can yee fix these & send them back tournament ready there. Maybe we need to be more .... pRoACtIVe. ffs

[elatedscum]

https://twitter.com/FutsalFinn/statu...64143863107584
We have eight 17 year olds, Poland has 15 in their squad! We’ve four lads aged 15 & one 14 year old the other seven are 16. Polish squad has six 16 year olds. Time will tell if having a younger squad will stand to our lads. Poland have been very impressive
In fact, there are more 15 year olds on our squad than all the other nations in the tournament combined! This has been a poor performance against a very good Poland team but being so young has obvious challenges in underage international football.

The issue is, this is at least partly by design. In terms of players who are actually u17s - none of Kone-Doherty, Wade, Kelly or Dodd were included - they'd all be 100% picks for me and starters for me (maybe two of Kelly, Dodd and McGrath for the same position).

We know for sure that Doherty is injured, and it's possible the rest are also in the same boat but the FAI press release only mentioned Doherty and McAndrew (u16). Wade scored for Chelsea in a tournament in the netherlands last month.

Obviously there's some incredibly talented u16s (Collins, Harnett, Moore, Murray, Orazi, Melia, McAndrew) and Solanke who's an u15 - but it's hard to imagine there's only 13 u17s who aren't ahead of their much younger counterparts. It's weird as the tournament has progressed the squad has gotten younger and younger rather than older.

Maybe it's a by-product of Brexit, that we previously had 3 streams of players: the lads who stayed, the lads who moved and the second/third gen players living abroad. Maybe the consequence is that the second tier players are no longer getting places in elite LOI sides, so there's less depth? Maybe we're a little unlucky that Michael Golding and Josh Acheampong are both playing for England rather than us. Maybe the fact that the 17s side has had so many u16s involved recently means that the better u17s haven't had the requisite exposure? Maybe 2006 is just a down year (like we had in 1993 or 1994)

I couldn't really tell you how far along guys like Theo Avery, Jamie Gamble, Sean Mackey, Sean Hayden, Orlandas Jakas, Patryk Swieczka, John O'Sullian, Cian Morling, Brian Moore, Elidon O'Boyle or Aidan Cannon are. I'm sure some have lost ground over the last year - but genuinely the youth of the squad is something surprising. I'd expect we'll see some good players getting u19s caps who were overlooked for this squad.

Also the youth of the team selection was surprising. I would have expected Babb at right back, Turley in centre back along with Grante. Romeo in midfield in Turley's place, and probably Nickson Okosun and Taylor Mooney as part of the front three, maybe alongside Orazi.

I'd still expect us to beat Wales. Interesting they only have one u16 in their squad and their most talented lad Elliot Myles didn't make their squad - even though he's possibly/probably more talented than any of our u16s.

[TonyD]

How long do you think that is going to take? Who is expected to fund it - the FAI is broke? Are you of the view that players should be being pushed towards staying here in a substandard system at this point in time, even though there are far better setups available to them in Europe?

I’ll flip that question for you. When do you think we should start to try develop our own players then ? Or are you always going to be like the guy who says “I wouldn’t start from here “ ? Short term thinking like that means we’ll never get anywhere. To answer your question, the longer we leave it, the longer it will take.

[Eirambler]

We don't start at any point because we started decades ago. Hundreds of young players come through our own development structures already, it's just we never hear about most of them because they're not elite level potential players. The elite ones leave and always have done.

Once the funding, structures, facilities and coaches are in place to keep elite level players here, they'll stay here because they'll want to. Right now, because none of those are in place, they'll leave at the first available opportunity, just like they always have done. Just unfortunately, for those that are set on the UK, they must wait until 18 now. But at least the continent remains an option for those that are keen to go sooner.

Suggesting that lads should be choosing to stay here until 21 (as has been put forward here) is for the birds to be honest.

[pineapple stu]

Suggesting that lads should be choosing to stay here until 21 (as has been put forward here) is for the birds to be honest.

James McClean, Séamus Coleman, Wes Hoolahan, Kevin Doyle, Daryl Murphy and Enda Stevens would be among those who'd disagree, I'm sure.

But I think if you're going to suggest that people are away with the birds, you should at least have the courtesy to engage in the points being made. So for example -

• Why does the LoI have such a respectable record in the UEFA Youth League? We've seen a wide spread of LoI teams holding their own against some much bigger clubs
• Why is it so vital our players move to Italy, Belgium or England when they qualified ahead of Italy and matched Poland's recent results against Belgium and England?
• Why did we lose by a bigger margin at this stage six years ago with a squad that included Lee O'Connor (Manchester United), Nathan Collins (Stoke), Aaron Connolly (Brighton) and Gavin Kilkenny (Bournemouth)?
• Why should we encourage sending 16-year-old kids abroad to a country where they've to learn a new language so they can have a 1% chance (if that) of making it as a pro? Do these elite academies even want them?
• Why do you not look at the age profile of our squad, which appears to be the youngest at the tournament?
• Why no mention of the fact that at 18, these players should be going into increasingly full-time senior setups, whereas abroad they'd be dumped in an U19s academy? I think the former is a big positive, especially if there's European football on offer too.

Nobody's saying all our players should wait until their 21st birthday before moving abroad. But you're the one saying they should all be looking to jump ship once they hit 18, and I (and others, it seems) can't agree with that. Brexit is Irish football's biggest opportunity in decades.

[nigel-harps1954]

It's a uniquely Irish trait to have a want, or perhaps a strong wish, to see Irish players play anywhere else except for in Ireland. It's nothing other than a strong anti-Irish football and anti-LOI stance, and nobody will convince me differently.

[pineapple stu]

I think in fairness there's a lot of work to be done domestically and that has to be acknowledged. I think it was Damien Duff recently who was pointing out that academy players here get half the time on the ball players in Europe or England do. Academies here are underfunded and run by volunteers for a large part. It's a problem.

But sending kids abroad at 16 is a problem too. That has to be acknowledged. It's good that's largely a thing of the past - particularly for the majority of players who don't make it, but even for the minority who do.

I think the ability to have senior ball here from 18 is a big plus though. I still don't see why the entire squad should be looking to leave that being and go into the first foreign academy that comes calling. And of course there's some players who it will suit to leave at 18. But it's not the be-all-and-end-all

[ifk101]

But sending kids abroad at 16 is a problem too.

It legalised child trafficking.

I'm on the Richard Dunne side of the fence (academies are factories). Yes there is a value there in learning the structures the game, but not necessarily for "that something extra". Ultimately it comes down to the individual and that individual's drive to succeed - and maybe the Irish structure finds that happy medium between structure uniform and individual. If you are good enough, the structures are there to learn the mechanics of the game and you'll get to test yourself in a competitive senior league, and from that, the option to move abroad is there when ready.

[SkStu]

It legalised child trafficking.

I'm on the Richard Dunne side of the fence (academies are factories). Yes there is a value there in learning the structures the game, but not necessarily for "that something extra". Ultimately it comes down to the individual and that individual's drive to succeed - and maybe the Irish structure finds that happy medium between structure uniform and individual. If you are good enough, the structures are there to learn the mechanics of the game and you'll get to test yourself in a competitive senior league, and from that, the option to move abroad is there when ready.

IFK, the Swedish and Danish leagues have always seemed to me to be countries where this was done well. Where the elite players left young-ish but the good players stayed, played and then moved to big leagues (and big teams) in their early to mid-twenties. Fair that’s still the case? What can Irish football and authorities be doing now that has worked well for Swedish system and players? Competitor sports and proximity to bigger leagues an issue there too, it seems, albeit I’d say a bit less so than here.

[elatedscum]

• Why does the LoI have such a respectable record in the UEFA Youth League? We've seen a wide spread of LoI teams holding their own against some much bigger clubs

Results at youth level are only partially indicative of player development. There are players who will help you win games at U19 level, that will never have the skill set to succeed at senior level. There’s also tactical decisions that you can make which might help winning games at youth level but won’t be advantageous to the long term development of a player. I’m not saying this is often or always the case - and I do think learning to win is important trait for a young player to take on board. But not as simple as saying because we punch above our weight in the Uefa Youth League, we’re equally skilled in player development at that level.

[elatedscum]

• Why is it so vital our players move to Italy, Belgium or England when they qualified ahead of Italy and matched Poland's recent results against Belgium and England?

It’s a bit of a weird one. England’s academy system has produced more quality players over the past decade than anywhere else in the world. The previous 20 or so years, they were really poor, which was detrimental to Ireland. The academies weren’t great (apart from Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, United and Southampton) and amongst the top 4 clubs there were no pathways to first team football which led to stagnation and basically undid the good work of the academy. But basically since maybe the class born in 1997, there’s been real quality and huge depth right down the league - and you can see that clubs from all over Europe are trying to sign young kids from English academies at 16, 17, 18. In that respect, Brexit has been a huge loss to us - because it was an easy avenue to the best academies in the world, it was right on our doorstep, just a 40 minute flight away and there was no language barrier - and if you look at the current crop coming through, they're almost all products of those academies. In Italy for example, clubs are notoriously conservative about giving young players an opportunity, if you look at the age profile of the national team, it’s always older - and if you look at the developmental path of the Italian senior squad, it generally requires a player to break through in Serie B or Serie C first.

[elatedscum]

• Why did we lose by a bigger margin at this stage six years ago with a squad that included Lee O'Connor (Manchester United), Nathan Collins (Stoke), Aaron Connolly (Brighton) and Gavin Kilkenny (Bournemouth)?

Losing 7-0 to an older Germany team and losing 5-1 to an older Poland side are probably comparable in terms of results. It was probably also mitigated by the fact that was the last game of the group and we qualified anyway, so the result was irrelevant, as if we didn’t take points of Germany, it went down to head to head results between us and the other teams. And it was also an unusually young group

[elatedscum]

• Why should we encourage sending 16-year-old kids abroad to a country where they've to learn a new language so they can have a 1% chance (if that) of making it as a pro? Do these elite academies even want them?

In fairness, the players who are good enough to be wanted by top academies don’t have a 1% of making it, it’s a lot higher, somewhere in the 50-70% range. If you look at the lads who have signed since abroad since Brexit, they’re not sure things, virtually no one is at that age, but they’re the high outcome players. For example, if you look at that team that lost to Germany six years ago, it probably contains about 13 out of 18 professionals. 1 premier league player (Collins), 3 championship players (Idah, Connolly, Kilkenny), 1 league 1 (Wright), 1 league 2 (O’Connor), 1 conference (Roache), 1 USL (Doherty), 6 LOI (maher, Redmond, ledwidge, Kavanagh, Bolger, Thompson - at least 4 would be pro, no?). The guys who I’m not sure about are Clarke, Nolan, Walsh, O’Farrell - and those guys who are out of the game were the guys who never signed for English clubs. Nowadays, it's the star underage players who are getting moves abroad (Heffernan, Zefi, Umeh, O'Mahony - with Curtis and Ferizaj the two other elite irish born talents - and those players are all high outcome lads).


Going away is not always negative, sometimes it can be the making of a person. One of my closest friends was an Ireland youth international and was really highly sought after. He went on trial to Liverpool first and then Spurs at about age 15. There was an incident in digs at Spurs. He went across with another Irish player. Separately, Spurs had signed a kid from abroad for huge money - and this kid found out my friend’s ethnic origin (where his father was from) and started to abuse and berate him because of it. The other irish player witnessed this and went over and punched the kid and gave him a bloody nose. The next day, Spurs found out about it and sent both players home. Then Gary Doherty who was at Spurs at the time wrote a letter to his club and to the FAI basically saying that they had brought shame to the country etc etc (interestingly, Stephen Kelly was the opposite, he was really supportive and checked in on both players afterwards). As a result of the letter, there was an agreement with the FAI and the club that the players wouldn’t be allowed to go on trial for the next year. The other kid signed for Liverpool based on the trial and my friend was left kicking his heels. About a year later, he got a really bad knee injury (ACL and MCL tear) - and from his perspective, he always felt had he been in an academy, he would have received better treatment from a better surgeon, better rehab, and especially faster treatment (as he was waiting for weeks if not months for the surgery to be scheduled. He recovered and went on to play for 2 LOI clubs between 18 and 21 before falling out of the game. Speaking to his father, his father always felt if he’d have been able to get out to go abroad, it would have done wonders for him. It’s not really spoken about much - but the environment as a young player at LOI clubs is often pretty grim and toxic. There’s a lot of people involved in stuff - less so once people reach a degree of success in the first team but at u19 level and at the fringes, there’s people involved in stuff, which isn’t conducive to long term success in life. There’s so much bravado and stupidity, if you’re not strong you end up, you end up hanging out with the wrong crowd.


Thinking about that, at a totally different leve, I remember myself, I moved clubs at 15 to one of three or four big Dublin schoolboys teams and it was a nightmare. I moved cause was an issue with my old manager, I dunno if it was mental health issues or alcoholism - I didn’t really understand it then and we were probably protected from it as it all fell apart. It was basically the start of the season, so players all went in different directions based on ability etc. I signed for a club and it was the weirdest experience. I had never been bullied or anything in my life, I’d played four sports as a kid at either provincial or national level, played football competitively since I was 6 and never had an issue. But from the first training session, it was just madness. Three or four leg breakers every training, trying to get a reaction, people punching you for no reason, guys driving mopeds at you - and there was nothing you could do, there’s was twenty of them, all mates, and there was you. And there was no protection at all. I dunno if it was how I looked or how I talked or cause I was keeping one of their mates out of the team - but whatever it was, I genuinely hated football for that year - and the reality is, I was only there because the manager had made an effort to make it happen, but there was no protection at all, and if anything it was almost encouraged - and at that age, I was too shy to really talk to my brother or parents about it - I wasn’t weak and I didn’t want to seem it - so I just dealt with it.


I probably haven’t thought about it for a decade - but I don’t think it’s changed much. My cousin is 19 and on the books of an LOI club, but his last season of playing DDSL before moving was mental. One of his teammates got sent off after some fight broke out and he went and took out a knife out. It was a ****ing friendly as well. It beggars belief. My cousin is the sweetest kid. Practically raised his younger siblings, got 580 points in his leaving or something. Was on trial in Italy at some point, didn’t make it - now, he’s lovely footballer, a really lovely footballer - but I don’t he really has the physical attributes to make it as a pro - maybe the right club at an early enough would have changed that. Saying that, he (or anyone else) didn’t deserve to have to worry about kids brandishing knives when he just wants to play football. And I’d rather him playing for Lincoln’s U18s or whoever than being part of something like that.

[elatedscum]

• Why no mention of the fact that at 18, these players should be going into increasingly full-time senior setups, whereas abroad they'd be dumped in an U19s academy? I think the former is a big positive, especially if there's European football on offer too.

There’s no right answers. From a developmental perspective, it’s probably better for a player to join an English team at 16 than 18. You’re right that they’re almost certainly gonna play reserves at 18. The issue is, it feels like championship clubs rarely take a look at a player playing LOI at 21. So your ceiling is a move to League 1 or SPL. And everything needs to go right there - and then you can get a move to the championship. And from there, the premier league - but that’s probably a 5 season plan - and at that point clubs are already viewing you as old. I’d love to be able to run a case study where you could see how Ferguson, Collins, Moran, Knight and Bazunu did staying in LOI till 21. It might not even be about ability, it feels as though English sides have become more and more conservative about what they expect Irish kids can be able to do. Ferizaj might be the best example. A player sought after by premier league clubs and European clubs who’s family decided to keep him at rovers. Not a chance that a premier league team will sign him and introduce him into the first team at about 21 like Coleman and McClean did. But hopefully, things will accelerate fast once he makes the move. It's all a bit of coin toss. Lyons is probably happy he stayed, Brandon Kavanagh probably regrets it. Nathan Collins is happy he went, Kam Ledwidge probably regrets it. Etc etc.


I was thinking about Haaland’s development in the context of Ireland and how we would look to develop a player and then also Odegaard as a comparison.




Haaland:
Age 14/15, reserve football
Age 15/16, first division Norway (second tier)
Age 16/17, premier division Norway (first tier)
Age 17/18, premier division Norway (half season)
Age 18, austrian league
Age 19, austrian league (half season)
Age 19 Bundesliga (half season)
Age 20 Bundesliga
Age 21 Bundesliga
Age 22 Premier League


And in general he was playing for one of the best teams in each league he played in.


Meanwhile Odegaard:


Age 14, reserve football
Age 15, first division Norway
Age 16, Madrid youths (half season)
Age 16/17 Madrid youths
Age 17 Madrid youths (half season)
Age 18 dutch league (half season)
Age 18/19 dutch league
Age 19/20 dutch league
Age 20/21 Spanish league
Age 21/22 Premier league
Age 22/23 Premier league
Age 23/24 Premier league


Both arrived in the premier league at a top club but took very different routes to get there.

I’d love if we could get to the level Austria is at, where Bundesliga teams or Championship teams would be willing to buy a player and believe he could be good enough. But right now, we are selling to League 1, SPL and MLS. It’ll probably take a side reaching the champions league group to maybe have the knock-on that could propel us in that direction. I guess the first step is consistent European groups in the conference or the europa league and gradual incremental improvements - but it’s not easy, everyone across Europe has the same aims.


Most LOI clubs need investment when it comes to stadia, training facilities, youth academies and much more beyond that. if you gave me a club and a bag full of money, I’m not sure where I’d begin.

[ontheotherhand]

• Why should we encourage sending 16-year-old kids abroad to a country where they've to learn a new language so they can have a 1% chance (if that) of making it as a pro? Do these elite academies even want them?

In fairness, the players who are good enough to be wanted by top academies don’t have a 1% of making it, it’s a lot higher, somewhere in the 50-70% range. If you look at the lads who have signed since abroad since Brexit, they’re not sure things, virtually no one is at that age, but they’re the high outcome players. For example, if you look at that team that lost to Germany six years ago, it probably contains about 13 out of 18 professionals. 1 premier league player (Collins), 3 championship players (Idah, Connolly, Kilkenny), 1 league 1 (Wright), 1 league 2 (O’Connor), 1 conference (Roache), 1 USL (Doherty), 6 LOI (maher, Redmond, ledwidge, Kavanagh, Bolger, Thompson - at least 4 would be pro, no?). The guys who I’m not sure about are Clarke, Nolan, Walsh, O’Farrell - and those guys who are out of the game were the guys who never signed for English clubs. Nowadays, it's the star underage players who are getting moves abroad (Heffernan, Zefi, Umeh, O'Mahony - with Curtis and Ferizaj the two other elite irish born talents - and those players are all high outcome lads).


Going away is not always negative, sometimes it can be the making of a person. One of my closest friends was an Ireland youth international and was really highly sought after. He went on trial to Liverpool first and then Spurs at about age 15. There was an incident in digs at Spurs. He went across with another Irish player. Separately, Spurs had signed a kid from abroad for huge money - and this kid found out my friend’s ethnic origin (where his father was from) and started to abuse and berate him because of it. The other irish player witnessed this and went over and punched the kid and gave him a bloody nose. The next day, Spurs found out about it and sent both players home. Then Gary Doherty who was at Spurs at the time wrote a letter to his club and to the FAI basically saying that they had brought shame to the country etc etc (interestingly, Stephen Kelly was the opposite, he was really supportive and checked in on both players afterwards). As a result of the letter, there was an agreement with the FAI and the club that the players wouldn’t be allowed to go on trial for the next year. The other kid signed for Liverpool based on the trial and my friend was left kicking his heels. About a year later, he got a really bad knee injury (ACL and MCL tear) - and from his perspective, he always felt had he been in an academy, he would have received better treatment from a better surgeon, better rehab, and especially faster treatment (as he was waiting for weeks if not months for the surgery to be scheduled. He recovered and went on to play for 2 LOI clubs between 18 and 21 before falling out of the game. Speaking to his father, his father always felt if he’d have been able to get out to go abroad, it would have done wonders for him. It’s not really spoken about much - but the environment as a young player at LOI clubs is often pretty grim and toxic. There’s a lot of people involved in stuff - less so once people reach a degree of success in the first team but at u19 level and at the fringes, there’s people involved in stuff, which isn’t conducive to long term success in life. There’s so much bravado and stupidity, if you’re not strong you end up, you end up hanging out with the wrong crowd.


Thinking about that, at a totally different leve, I remember myself, I moved clubs at 15 to one of three or four big Dublin schoolboys teams and it was a nightmare. I moved cause was an issue with my old manager, I dunno if it was mental health issues or alcoholism - I didn’t really understand it then and we were probably protected from it as it all fell apart. It was basically the start of the season, so players all went in different directions based on ability etc. I signed for a club and it was the weirdest experience. I had never been bullied or anything in my life, I’d played four sports as a kid at either provincial or national level, played football competitively since I was 6 and never had an issue. But from the first training session, it was just madness. Three or four leg breakers every training, trying to get a reaction, people punching you for no reason, guys driving mopeds at you - and there was nothing you could do, there’s was twenty of them, all mates, and there was you. And there was no protection at all. I dunno if it was how I looked or how I talked or cause I was keeping one of their mates out of the team - but whatever it was, I genuinely hated football for that year - and the reality is, I was only there because the manager had made an effort to make it happen, but there was no protection at all, and if anything it was almost encouraged - and at that age, I was too shy to really talk to my brother or parents about it - I wasn’t weak and I didn’t want to seem it - so I just dealt with it.


I probably haven’t thought about it for a decade - but I don’t think it’s changed much. My cousin is 19 and on the books of an LOI club, but his last season of playing DDSL before moving was mental. One of his teammates got sent off after some fight broke out and he went and took out a knife out. It was a ****ing friendly as well. It beggars belief. My cousin is the sweetest kid. Practically raised his younger siblings, got 580 points in his leaving or something. Was on trial in Italy at some point, didn’t make it - now, he’s lovely footballer, a really lovely footballer - but I don’t he really has the physical attributes to make it as a pro - maybe the right club at an early enough would have changed that. Saying that, he (or anyone else) didn’t deserve to have to worry about kids brandishing knives when he just wants to play football. And I’d rather him playing for Lincoln’s U18s or whoever than being part of something like that.

Pretty worrying stuff in your last paragraph there ES. Can I ask if you think that sort of environment exists across at LoI clubs in the present day or just the DDSL ones? I'm struggling to picture it happening at the Rovers academy but that's the only one I have experience with. I've assumed the likes of Ger O'Brien at Pats and the people at Bohs/Sligo etc are running fairly tight ships as well. You've said the English academies have changed a lot in 20 years and I've been working under the assumption that the LoI one's have been improving too. Through that lens I'm looking at the u-17s teams home grown nature as a huge plus. If we can get these lads a similar level of coaching to that age and then have the really exceptional ones go away for money at 18/19 I think we'd be in better shape.

As you sort of say, different pathways will suit different players. In the past our reliance on England probably worked out well for some but no so well for others as in your first anecdote. Best place for Irish football to be is to be able to cater to all sorts of individuals, e.g. the Fergusons and Bazunus but also the Curtis', Coleman's and Razis. I think the reaction to Eirambler's posts was down to the fact that it seemed to want us to ship everyone abroad at the first opportunity. He may not have meant it in that way.