James McClean M Wrexham b.1989

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

So after all the judgemental ranting and raving you manage to produce one concrete example, concerning our only undeniably world class player of the last twenty years.

You keep sighting O'Dea as an example. Are you forgetting that O'Dea played for Toronto before heading to Ukraine. Maybe McClean's motives are fully ambition based, in the sense that a season or two in the MLS might actually give him more exposure than the depths of League One, which is where he is currently at, let's not forget.

As for this David Forde thing, the second tier of German football is just called 2.Bundesliga or the 2nd Bundesliga, so there's no obvious distinction like the Premier League and the Championship. Even if Forde actually said he got an offer from the Bundesliga (which he didn't) then I don't think it could necessarily be assumed he meant the top flight. As it is, he only said he got an offer from Germany anyway. I'm not assuming one way or the other by the way, but it's ridiculous to conclude that this offer was a step up. We just don't know.

You have your head in the sand if you think foreign teams have an embargo on signing Irish players. I know for a fact, without mentioning any names, there are several Irish football players, who when they were younger, didn't entertain moves to foreign clubs because they wouldn't be able to go on the lash with their mates several times a week. It is a cultural thing. Our footballers don't know anything other than the PL and don't want to entertain the thought of playing abroad.

Yes. You're right. I'm ranting and raving. I should place more stock in the oracles than Forde himself, or journalists he speaks to on a regular basis as one of Millwall's senior players with media duties.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Nige.....

Out of those players, Lampard, Villa (at a push), Keane (at a push), Dempsey (at a push), Maloney (at a push) and Kaka are the only players that can perform at a decent level and all are in their mid-thirties. No big European club would take Kaka on because of his injury problems and loss of form; his wages and ego too extravagant for smaller teams.

St Ledger couldn't earn a contract in the Championship. Martins is almost a decade past his best. Cheyrou never lived up to his new Zidane billing, which was over a decade ago. Ridgewell and Reo-Coker were very mediocre players in the PL. Pogatetz flopped in Germany after leaving England several years ago. Steve Caldwell is a very limited defender. We all have had doubts about Doyle over the last three years, I have been comparatively soft on him.

McClean is in his mid-twenties, he is a full international.

He shouldn't look to the likes of Gerrard as an example of why he should move to the MLS.

Some of Gerrard's recent comments about leaving Liverpool for the MLS have been extremely patronising.

[DannyInvincible]

I would call being offered a better, longer-term deal at a French first division team and having the chance to play against Monaco, Marseille, Saint Etienne & Paris Saint-Germain more attractive than signing a short-term deal at Ipswich Town. Stephen inferred as much himself.

I'm sure David doesn't have any regrets about staying at relegation fodder Millwall and getting relegated, rather than testing himself in a new country, learning a new language, adapting to a new culture and playing in a first division, which I maintain is where the offer came from. No regrets about the way he has lost his place in the national team.

I'm obviously not saying they don't/mightn't have regrets. Why are you sarcastically trying to imply that's what I said? Maybe they do have regrets in hindsight (although your paragraph on Forde is complete speculation and we have no idea how he might be feeling, especially as we have no idea where the offer came from besides Germany), but hindsight provides great illumination. If it was such a no-brainer for Hunt, why didn't he go for it? Why did he require the benefit of hindsight, wisdom and experience to feel later regret if the decision should have been such an obvious one when he was first presented with it?

And why are you still maintaining Forde's offer came from the top division? It's possible, sure, but you simply cannot be certain based on the evidence available, so you just look like a stubborn, delusional fool. (Any luck with that quote?)

Did I mention Gary Breen?

And I am the purveyor of the straw man argument..

If you're insinuating there that I have raised a strawman argument, I don't think you actually understand what a strawman is. Let me explain why I raised Gary Breen... You mentioned Stephen Carr because he was linked by the media to Barcelona (I'll assume you're correct in that at least), despite the fact we've been discussing Irish players who have received and rejected offers from the continent. Did Carr receive or reject an offer from Barcelona? No. Ergo, he's completely irrelevant to the discussion. Which is why I jokingly suggested we might as well consider Gary Breen (who was also amusingly linked to Barca at one time) for inclusion in this new and irrelevant discussion too; to expose your moving of the goalposts from where you were attempting in vain to compile a concrete list of players who've rejected offers from the continent (seeing as you were getting so wound up about all the continental offers our players have supposedly been declining) to presenting the names of some players who've been vaguely or merely linked by the media to clubs on the continent, because you were so obviously struggling to come up with players who satisfied the original parameters. Having to explain really basic rules of logic to you is just mad and so very, very tedious.

You have your head in the sand if you think foreign teams have an embargo on signing Irish players. I know for a fact, without mentioning any names, there are several Irish football players, who when they were younger, didn't entertain moves to foreign clubs because they wouldn't be able to go on the lash with their mates several times a week.

How many players are you referring to? Are they still playing now and at what level are they at, or at what level did they eventually peak? Who were the continental clubs who offered them contracts?

[tetsujin1979]

so....is he signing or what?

[DannyInvincible]

According to Wigan Today (yesterday), he is actually "holidaying" in the US and "enjoying some down-time": http://www.wigantoday.net/sport/wiga...s-on-1-7259641

McClean is currently holidaying in the USA, fuelling rumours of interest from MLS outfits New York Red Bulls and Orlando City.

He’s enjoying some well-earned down-time after doing everything on a personal level to keep Latics in the Championship.

The deadline for signing new players was the 12th of May. Another window will open on the 8th of July, but nothing's been confirmed.

The photo below is from a video he had on his Facebook that was picked up by Joe.ie: http://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/vid...new-york/24382



He seems to be wearing NY Red Bulls gear in it. The video was taken at the Fighting Fit gym in Derry though, so all a bit puzzling.

[Supreme feet]

I'd personally like to see more Irish players ply their trade further afield. For example, someone like Greg Cunningham - who has looked technically sound and well-adjusted to international football - would be better off abroad than rotting away in League One. Same would apply to Conor Henderson, Owen Garvan, Conor Clifford, Darren Potter and others. At underage level, they all looked to have the tools to go quite far in the game, and staying in the English system has been terribly limiting for them. The likes of Cascarino and Dominic Foley did well out of moving abroad, and it should be an option for some players whose abilities have been stifled, or found opportunities limited, in England.

However, spending a season at, say, Utrecht, Augsburg or Sochaux would not turn James McClean into Gareth Bale. He's probably reached his ceiling of ability, regardless of where he goes. And it's naive to think that 'becoming a more technically rounded player so I can be more well-adjusted to international football' is a major consideration for Irish footballers when they're planning a career move. Family, money and support network are always going to be much bigger factors.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Straw man argument - "informal fallacy based on false representation of an opponent's argument". If you are going to constantly denigrate someone and devalue their argument by bringing those three words up, then don't get so precious when it's flipped against you.

I agree, Supreme Feet.

See, you can disagree with certain aspects of something someone wrote, without writing condescending waffle full of passive-aggressive tendencies and thinly veiled insults.

I agree that family and support network is important but the world is becoming a smaller place. Moving to a foreign country would not be as daunting as it would be several decades ago. Strangely enough, there was a decent amount of Irish players making a good living in places like Spain & France several decades ago.

The Brazilians, for example, have a stronger family culture than the Irish do and there are thousands of them plying their trade all over Europe. Maybe Irish players are just too indulged by English football?

There are interviews with Richie Towell doing the rounds in the media and the lad's goal seems to begin and end with moving "across the water" to England. Is there any other possibility?

I may have been jumping the gun about McClean, anyway. Hopefully, he will stay in the United Kingdom and get a move to a top 6 Championship team or a bottom 6 Premier League team.

No need to panic just yet.

[DannyInvincible]

Straw man argument - "informal fallacy based on false representation of an opponent's argument". If you are going to constantly denigrate someone and devalue their argument by bringing those three words up, then don't get so precious when it's flipped against you.

But you've not demonstrated how I have been guilty of committing the fallacy, so, of course, I will strongly object. I, on the other hand, outlined very clearly why I thought you were erecting a strawman argument in the Grealish thread when you accused some imagined group of straw people of having first said Roy Keane's comment about waiting for Kevin Grealish was jocular before later contradicting themselves by using the comment as a stick with which to beat Keane over the fact that Grealish has declined a call-up just so you could lord it over them. The only person seriously criticising Keane for that comment is the poorly-informed Dunphy, who is a stirring attention seeker with a chip on his shoulder. I haven't seen anyone else do what you accuse your straw people of. But feel free to show me them...

The Brazilians, for example, have a stronger family culture than the Irish do and there are thousands of them plying their trade all over Europe. Maybe Irish players are just too indulged by English football?

There are interviews with Richie Towell doing the rounds in the media and the lad's goal seems to begin and end with moving "across the water" to England. Is there any other possibility?

There is an ingrained cultural infatuation with the English Premier League in Ireland, definitely. That's unfortunate. The Sky machine is very effective at promoting its product; if you're convinced you're watching the "best league in the world", why would you even bother looking beyond it? We are neighbours with a serious history of inter-migration, we were formerly under British dominion and the lingual/cultural barriers aren't as pronounced, so it's easy to see and experience England or Scotland as less alien than continental Europe.

However, in acknowledging that, it is unfair to attack and single out players for having turned down offers which either don't exist or of which you don't know the nature. There have to be offers on the table first before you can consider them. You'd think players weren't taking their own careers seriously, the way you present the situation. They have a lot more to worry about than simply entertaining the likes of you and I; they have short careers and have to weigh up risks and benefits just like any other worker with or without a family.

I may have been jumping the gun about McClean, anyway. Hopefully, he will stay in the United Kingdom and get a move to a top 6 Championship team or a bottom 6 Premier League team.

No need to panic just yet.

Fair enough. There was absolutely no justification for dragging McClean (who at least seems to have been seriously considering something a bit different from the norm) into the Irish-players-rejecting-continental-offers debate.

[DeLorean]

You have your head in the sand if you think foreign teams have an embargo on signing Irish players.

Ha? Please explain how you think I might believe this is the case, as it is typical of the tripe you respond with. Clearly they don't, I know this because Cascarino, Aldridge, Brady, Connolly, McGeady and Sheridan have all played on the continent, to name a few.

I know for a fact, without mentioning any names, there are several Irish football players, who when they were younger, didn't entertain moves to foreign clubs because they wouldn't be able to go on the lash with their mates several times a week.

Excellent, facts are what I'm after. Why do you feel the need to keep these facts a secret? There are no penalties for providing information that you can back up.

It is a cultural thing. Our footballers don't know anything other than the PL and don't want to entertain the thought of playing abroad.

I'm not even disagreeing with you on this point. British and Irish players are generally very slow to move 'abroad' , I don't think many would dispute this. What I was hoping for was some examples from you, so I could the weigh up whether I actually thought the potential move to the continent might have been a step up or a step down for the players concerned. You gave the example of Roy Keane which is fair enough, even if he was in an exceptionally better position in terms of options than your average Irish player. Stephen Hunt has been discussed as well. Is that it in terms of factual cases where we actually know the player involved and the potential club? No need to answer if there are no facts to share, or if it just doesn't suit you to reply. I know the drill.

[nigel-harps1954]

I'd personally prefer if the FAI stepped in and had a look at Irish players constantly failing in England despite their promise and done something to strengthen football here financially so that we could have more success in bringing back players of the likes of Garvan, Clifford, Cunningham similar to Richie Towell and Mikey Drennan who are now thriving in the League of Ireland and preparing for European football this summer.

[Stuttgart88]

Cue my second time saying this: get some rich fecker to pay off the FAI's debts (modest in the overall scheme of things) and then get the FAI to pay same amount currently spent on debt service towards the LOI. Salaries, stadium grants, prize money and marketing. Major step forward.

DeLorean: add John Byrne, Frank Stapleton, Liam Buckley, Alan Campbell, Liam Miller, Andy Keogh, Eamon Zayed and plenty of others. Not to mention the MLS contingent.

It's funny how Keogh, St. Ledger etc get ridiculed for going far abroad to play football as if it's some kind of mark of failure yet it's what we seem to think younger players should aspire to.

I know many many Irish builders, musicians, bankers, accountants, IT geeks and lawyers who work in the UK. I hardly know any who work in France, Japan, Germany or Italy etc. Of my university contemporaries who emigrated all but one that I know went to work in an English speaking country. Why should our footballers be different?

How many of the foot.ie posters work abroad? Lots. How many work in non-English speaking countries? Decky worked in Belgium. Anyone else? Spudulika, osarusan...

Football is also a job, a way to pay bills, to buy a house. It's worse than many walks of life. Commit yourself to pure footballing ideals and by the time you're 30 you might have a better first touch if you play in Croatia, but you've less capital and visibility than if you'd taken the conventional option. Your skills are redundant in your mid thirties. You can even get a nice Slavic chick if you play for Lincoln or Sligo, so no need to go to Dubrovnik anyway

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd personally prefer if the FAI stepped in and had a look at Irish players constantly failing in England despite their promise and done something to strengthen football here financially so that we could have more success in bringing back players of the likes of Garvan, Clifford, Cunningham similar to Richie Towell and Mikey Drennan who are now thriving in the League of Ireland and preparing for European football this summer.

Ah well, Cunnigham took a step back with Bristol but, realistically, him and Williams are at a good Championship level side and that's beyond what the LOI can offer. Hard to see what coming back to Ireland could have offered him. Its guys like Hoban who's gone from playing in a terrific Dundalk side to a route one League Two side we need to look at. This is a guy who caused real problems to Hajduk Split, now he's winning headers against Fleetwood and it doesn't suit him. That'll only come through our teams doing better in Europe and proper teams saying our players can adapt to a proper level of footbal, like Jay O'Shea or Fahey back when.

[tetsujin1979]

Wigan looking for £2.5million for him, not sure they're in an ideal position to demand that kind of cash

[Charlie Darwin]

Has interest from a Premier League club and some Championship clubs, but fears moving to MLS could harm international chances: http://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/socc...league-5759757

[Charlie Darwin]

About to sign for West Brom, £1.5m deal. Considering some of the places rumoured, that's a great move for him.

[Olé Olé]

Fantastic move for him. Hope it goes through. Without meaning offence to either of them, I think McClean is a really Tony Pulis player.

EDIT: Only saw this article from the other day. Roughly sums up how I feel about McClean. I didn't like Naismith's behaviour on the pitch Saturday. McClean let him know how he felt about it too and the crowd enjoyed it.
http://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/jam...e-chance/28447

[jbyrne]

Fantastic move for him. Hope it goes through. Without meaning offence to either of them, I think McClean is a really Tony Pulis player.

EDIT: Only saw this article from the other day. Roughly sums up how I feel about McClean. I didn't like Naismith's behaviour on the pitch Saturday. McClean let him know how he felt about it too and the crowd enjoyed it.
http://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/jam...e-chance/28447

"Right now, there seems to be some form of disconnect between the nation and the team"

why is this when the team always give their all? personally I agree that its there but it's crazy that it is. surely a team that scores so many late winners / levellers deserves better due to their never give up attitude?

[Stuttgart88]

Fantastic move for him. Hope it goes through. Without meaning offence to either of them, I think McClean is a really Tony Pulis player.

EDIT: Only saw this article from the other day. Roughly sums up how I feel about McClean. I didn't like Naismith's behaviour on the pitch Saturday. McClean let him know how he felt about it too and the crowd enjoyed it.
http://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/jam...e-chance/28447

Isn't Naismith the Scottish equivalent though, albeit with a bit more skill? I like Naismith. Very grounded and generous off the pitch. Touch of class on it. Snarly attitude but MON went a bit OTT I think on Saturday. We could do with a player just like him, a leader. He didn't react to McClean's "headbutt" either. It wasn't really a headbutt but they touched heads and I have seen plenty of Latins or Eastern Europeans make a meal of that type of incident and James could easily have walked.

Also, Naismith nearly scored, only his goal bound volley hit and floored a teammate. It was going in.

[Stuttgart88]

"Right now, there seems to be some form of disconnect between the nation and the team"

why is this when the team always give their all? personally I agree that its there but it's crazy that it is. surely a team that scores so many late winners / levellers deserves better due to their never give up attitude?

As you said earlier, the Irish public are a bunch of success-junkies. I've posted before on BIRGing and CORFing, so won't bore you again (see link below if you're interested), but it's a proven sociological factor in sport fan behaviour. It's abundantly evident in Irish sports fans in my opinion.

http://www.units.miamioh.edu/psybersite/fans/bc.shtml

[DannyInvincible]

Isn't Naismith the Scottish equivalent though, albeit with a bit more skill? I like Naismith. Very grounded and generous off the pitch. Touch of class on it. Snarly attitude but MON went a bit OTT I think on Saturday. We could do with a player just like him, a leader. He didn't react to McClean's "headbutt" either. It wasn't really a headbutt but they touched heads and I have seen plenty of Latins or Eastern Europeans make a meal of that type of incident and James could easily have walked.

Also, Naismith nearly scored, only his goal bound volley hit and floored a teammate. It was going in.

I thought Naismith was going to go down when James leaned his head forward but he probably realised there hadn't been anywhere near enough force to make a tumble look remotely convincing. He'd only have looked a fool. Naismith is a complete nark to have on the opposing team but there is something about him that I like; he cares and it shows. James is similar in that sense, as you say.

Great move for James though. Back in the Premier League where he belongs and at a very decent mid-table club. Hope it works out for him.