Expectations

[mypost]

Giles and Dunphy wanted Paul Jewel to be appointed a while back....nuf said.

The thought of Paul Jewell going to Moscow or Italy and trying to get a result, puts Trap's results out there in perspective.

Dunphy screamed on air 4 years ago, that he wanted the FAI to stop appointing "rinky-dink" coach's and to "get someone in to do the job". He then wanted Paul Jewell to drive the train to Cork. Now we have someone in doing the job who isn't a rinky-dink coach, he's "offended" by it.

You really can't please some people.

[rebelmusic]

Aye well Dunphy just likes to sensationalise. He's always ranting about the latest young player in the premiership. He was wrong about Steven Ireland, he was wrong about Andy Reid, he thought Steven Ward was a striker.

His knowledge of tactics is criminal and the sad thing is how many people in the country believe what he's saying. I had one aquaintance in a pub starting to get violent with me because i wouldnt accept that Best should be starting every irish game. It even included the argument "Look at his fantasy football stats" to which my brain replied "Please die...now".

[boovidge]

I liked the bit last night when Dunphy tried to sound like he knew about the French team but could only come up with Benzema and Evra. Also, didn't he once predict tht Alan Quinn was the saviour of Irish football?

[Supreme feet]

Also, didn't he once predict tht Alan Quinn was the saviour of Irish football?

He certainly did.

[Crosby87]

The negativity is premature. If we qualify we will be a nothing to lose, dangerous team in Poland/Ukraine.
If we don't make it the ****ty winter months will provide for plenty of time to have chatter about the manager. But to do it now? I dont get it. Its self flagellation.
And to the people who say we don't "deserve" to be there anyway... If you qualify within the parameters of course you deserve to be there! Everyone has the same opportunity. If you get in you get in; no ifs ands or buts.
I see a warm summer day with Ireland playing their first tournament in a decade and the fans behind Trap 100%. So it won't be pretty. What is pretty about Ireland these days? Just win baby!

[Metrostars]

Another bonus living away from Ireland: don't have to put up with the likes of Dunphy and Giles. Seriously, these guys were the analysts in the 80's. It's past time RTE gave them their retirement cheque and get young blood on the box.

We can't all be Spain or Germany or Holland with tons of talented players in depth. After that I'd fancy our chances against the rest e.g. England, France, Italy etc.

Sure we got a bit of luck yesterday but we've had more bad luck than good luck over the years so I'll take it. I'd prefer a shyte win over an agonizing loss any day of the week.

[SkStu]

My expectations are low based on Traps approach to football and as a result my expectations have been exceeded again. But, it is clear that teams have now figured out how to nullify us almost completely. Double up on the wingers and we are of limited threat - why? Because we dont allow our FBs to attack and our CMs sit so deep as to be ineffective in supporting the attack most of the time. Traps tactic is so two dimensional its frightening to think how badly a really good team will beat us. Traps been lucky as we havent faced one of those really good teams during his tenure. Italy and France both questionable at the time we played em, Russia no great shakes, Slovakia likewise. Its a strange time to be an Irish fan. In some ways I am delighted but at the same time I am fearful for what the play-offs and/or qualification has in store for us. I know a lot of people on here dont want to hear it but its the truth.

By the way, it is perfectly legitimate and to be expected that some people will want success at any cost and others will want something more than that. Those in the latter camp are entitled to criticise Trap despite results. Those in the former are entitled to focus on results and results only. As tedious as the (perceived) constant criticism of Trap might be to some, the (perceived) mindless defence of his tenure is equally as tedious to others.

But by god, i think most agree it is terrible sh1te we are watching.

[osarusan]

I'll take the results over performance all day long, but I think it's fair to ask for improvement when you genuinely believe improvement is possible.

I agree with this.

Whereas we know what the Irish team is capable under Trapattoni and the current tactics, we can only speculate as to whether we might be better with different tactics or a different coach.

And where we are now with Trapattoni is impressive - hard to beat, reasonably hard to score against, and seeded in the playoffs. We can't really argue with where we are right now. But I don't think the logical conclusion of this argument is that 'because we are in the playoffs, that vindicates everything Trapattoni has done.' Are we where we are because of his tactics, or, to some extent, in spite of them?

All a manager can be expected to do is maximise the potential of the pool of players at his disposal. As I said, all we can do is speculate as to whether this has been achieved, but in my opinion, there hasn't been the level of experimentation that I'd like. I know different players have been brought in and looked at, and on (rare) occasions, we've tried something different tactically, but I don't think Trapattoni has looked at other formations, particularly in midfield, as much as I'd have hoped he would.

The teams main deficiencies are in midfield. The argument is often made on here that we shouldn't try to play football against teams that are better than us in midfield - but I'm not sure anybody knows how well we can play football in midfield, as we've never really tried it. On the one occasion we had a prolonged spell of passing attacking football, we looked pretty good at it, and controlled the game well.

I guess Trapattoni has come to the conclusion that our best chance of success is through playing the way we do now. My issue with this is that I'm not sure he's done enough experimentation to be sure that this is the case. He settled on this system virtually from his first game, and hasn't really experimented that much (for my liking). I'd have no problem with the way we played now if I was convinced that it was the best way for us to play.

Mainly, I think I'm frustrated that we routinely hand (or boot) possession to our opponents, regardless of how bad they are.

[mypost]

I agree with this.

Whereas we know what the Irish team is capable under Trapattoni and the current tactics, we can only speculate as to whether we might be better with different tactics or a different coach.

And where we are now with Trapattoni is impressive - hard to beat, reasonably hard to score against, and seeded in the playoffs. We can't really argue with where we are right now. But I don't think the logical conclusion of this argument is that 'because we are in the playoffs, that vindicates everything Trapattoni has done.' Are we where we are because of his tactics, or, to some extent, in spite of them?

Definitely because of his tactics. We had failed to reach the previous 3 playoffs before he arrived. We have come a long way with a squad that is nowhere near how good it used to be 15-20 years ago. It took a handball to stop us going to the last finals. That was a remarkable effort considering where we were just 2 years before.

The system got us 20 points in the group, so it is effective. If we try to play a different system, then the players won't be used to it, we'll be less solid at the back, and we'll get fewer results.

[Real ale Madrid]

If we try to play a different system, then the players won't be used to it, we'll be less solid at the back, and we'll get fewer results.

That's your opinion - not the statement of fact it seems to be there.

Overall I think Trap has done a good job – but as I’ve said earlier, there is a certain time where we are going to have to go out, and win a game against a decent team. My feeling is his style is only going to get you so far. I felt that after the home game against France two years ago – and then we came out and looked like a completely different side and almost booked our place in the finals. If we come out and do the same thing this time around then I’ll be thrilled, thrilled for everyone who supports this team – but the question remains why we can’t be more positive on a regular basis – we’ve shown at certain stages that we improve as a team if we become more positive, so why not do it ?

On anther issue – I have to wonder why Giles and Dunphy had to hijack this thread – they weren’t mentioned in the OP. Do they have a role in forming our expectations? While I respect Giles – Dunphy has only ever been someone who states the obvious on air.

[mypost]

We've scored 15 goals in this campaign, and won 6 games. We win the games we need to, and we get the results we need in most of the others. We're positive when we have to be. A different coach may have us more gung-ho, but whether he'd get the same results or not is a different question.

[gormacha]

A different coach may have us more gung-ho, but whether he'd get the same results or not is a different question.

That's not the argument me and the others who are critical are making. We are (or at least "I am") saying is that we are playing hoofball, and that we would be more successful if we got the ball down on the deck and passed it.

We weren't playing Spain ffs. If we don't think we can outplay Armenia, who do we think we can outplay? Talk about setting your sights low. We are better than this.

I said it yesterday and no-one came back to challenge me on it, so I'll say it again. Does anyone disagree that our best spell of the match, where we looked at our most comfortable, was the opening fifteen minutes of the second half when we got the ball down and played?

[jbyrne]

I said it yesterday and no-one came back to challenge me on it, so I'll say it again. Does anyone disagree that our best spell of the match, where we looked at our most comfortable, was the opening fifteen minutes of the second half when we got the ball down and played?

no. it was good passing for about 15 mins at the start of the second half and we looked somewhat able to pull it off quite well. it was the right way to try and get a 2nd against the 10 men. our full backs and ctre mids pushed on and if we were playing a better team we may have been caught on the counter like when we pushed on against Italy after going 2-1 up and ultimately conceded as a result. given the players we have its a fine line between palying it safe and taking risks

[SwanVsDalton]

Think Osarusan largely summed up how I feel, well said.

As someone more interested in results, my main disappointment is we yet again have failed to take a victory against a decent side. The wins against Armenia and Macedonia showed we've developed a more clinical edge against middling teams but not beating a stuttering Slovakian side, particularly at home, was a missed opportunity. Being hard to beat is one thing but, to teams of a certain stature, we're hard to lose too as well.

Tactically we still lack the ability to change the tempo, control the game and squeeze the opposition if there of a similar stature to us. Can't help but feel until we develop a second gear (at least) we'll struggle.

But even in mentality (Trap's favourite word) I think we'll lack something until we take a minor scalp. Not beating these teams is an ever-growing question mark over an improving squad, and they'll know they still have questions to answer. Managing a crucial victory against one of the continent's better sides will bring this squad on even further and give them the extra belief they might need to actually play a bit more football.

So odd in a year when we've barely conceded to be so downbeat, but some of the stuff we've played has been just horrific. Credit to Trap for building a much better squad than the one he inherited but it's time for him to realise these guys can do a bit more than hoof.

[Real ale Madrid]

no. it was good passing for about 15 mins at the start of the second half and we looked somewhat able to pull it off quite well. it was the right way to try and get a 2nd against the 10 men. our full backs and ctre mids pushed on and if we were playing a better team we may have been caught on the counter like when we pushed on against Italy after going 2-1 up and ultimately conceded as a result. given the players we have its a fine line between palying it safe and taking risks

Mind boggling. I didn't see us take ANY risks during the first 10 mins of the second half last Tuesday! Jaysus - I'd hate to be a full back in a team coached by you - I'd be afraid to cross the halfway line!

[Stuttgart88]

Just when I get frustrated with Trap's performances, the man turns on the charm and wins me over again.

Some good stuff in here:

http://www.examiner.ie/sport/soccer/...ep-170548.html

[jbyrne]

Mind boggling. I didn't see us take ANY risks during the first 10 mins of the second half last Tuesday! Jaysus - I'd hate to be a full back in a team coached by you - I'd be afraid to cross the halfway line!

risks in traps eyes is what i meant.
played full back myself for 10 years and scored about 4/5 goals each season so fully support full backs getting forward!
have a look at holland friendly a few years ago and last 5 mins of Italy match in 2009 and tell me what you think about our players pushing on

[Real ale Madrid]

risks in traps eyes is what i meant.
played full back myself for 10 years and scored about 4/5 goals each season so fully support full backs getting forward!
have a look at holland friendly a few years ago and last 5 mins of Italy match in 2009 and tell me what you think about our players pushing on

I'm not going back to watch the Holland game - but didn't we give the ball away in the build-up to the Italy equaliser? Proves nothing except top sides punish you if you make mistakes - regardless of your tactics. Again I'm not looking for us to play gung-ho 3-4-3 all out attack football - just merely keep the ball better.

[punkrocket]

Expectations? Just risen sharply.

[Fixer82]

He was wrong about Steven Ireland, he was wrong about Andy Reid, he thought Steven Ward was a striker.

Actually I think he was right about all those players