Barstool facepalm

[DannyInvincible]

Are you serious? Do you really think that LOI fans are confronting or challenging non LOI fans, 'badgering' them, looking for them to justify their non-attendance? That's a ludicrous notion, and not in any way a rational interpretation of the comments on this thread either.

When terms like "excuse" are used, it indicates what I perceive to be a mindset that does nobody any favours. It sounds like a supporter is looking for justification for non-attendance when they speak of someone requiring an "excuse". I was just trying to demonstrate why that mindset might seem odd by adapting it to another context. I wasn't necessarily accusing supporters of being explicitly confrontational, although, for whatever reason, you have gotten very defensive about matters right now. You're usually a very rational and unemotional poster in debate, but you're clearly very touchy about what you see as your orthodoxy being challenged in this instance.

Danny, who are you to lecture us on what you see as our condescension and our unhelpful attitudes, or instruct us as to what we should be doing? Why should I not simply assume that you are just another poster who doesn't know much about LOI, but has the arrogance to think they know how to diagnose the problems and to fix them?

Certainly, your argument that all the league needs is a bit of imagination in its promotion is a ridiculous oversimplification of the problems it faces, and very insulting to people, people I know personally, who have spent years, if not decades, working their arses off to develop their club in the face of a generally apathetic public.

You seem to like simplifying my arguments into single sentences, but I'm not of the opinion that all the league needs is a little bit of imagination. I'm well aware there are other major problems it has to overcome in order to just about survive; problems that make things very difficult for the league, no matter what it and its patrons do. I'm sorry if I sounded like I was trying to lecture anyone; I wasn't. I'm trying to offer constructive debate. If you don't think a change in attitudes would be at all helpful, just say so; don't try to question my character and "qualifications". There's no need to try and frame me as some sort of "outsider" who first needs to validate himself before having a right to express an opinion on the LOI. I've attended league games for years at various periods of my life (as if I have to justify my opinion...). I won't try to claim I've ever been as dedicated as some of those on here and others - for whom I have great respect (I hope you don't see that as condescending!) - but I'm not coming at this as someone who wishes to disparage the league or cause it harm. So, you can get off your high-horse too.

[osarusan]

When terms like "excuse" are used, it indicates what I perceive to be a mindset that does nobody any favours. It sounds like a supporter is looking for justification for non-attendance when they speak of someone requiring an "excuse". I was just trying to demonstrate why that mindset might seem odd by adapting it to another context. I wasn't necessarily accusing supporters of being explicitly confrontational, although, for whatever reason, you have gotten very defensive about matters right now. You're usually a very rational and unemotional poster in debate, but you're clearly very touchy about what you see as your orthodoxy being challenged in this instance.

I'm not defensive (what have I go to be defensive about?), I'm pi**ed off, because I think you've horribly represented the 'mindset' of LOI fans.

Firstly, you've appropriated Sullivinho's post from the eligibility rules thread and adapted it for this debate, so it reads like this: What is absolutely beyond doubt is no one should ever, ever have an issue supporting the League of Ireland. That is the axiom from which all further reasoning must proceed. I don't see anything on this thread or on this website to suggest that this is in any way the majority view of LOI fans, but you have no problem ascribing this mindset to us. And what kind of words did you associate with this mindset? Delusion. Repressed anger. Condescension. We have unhelpful attitudes. We apparently, generally speaking, view anybody who doesn't have the same mindset as imbecilic ignoramuses. We badger them to have them justify their non-attendance at LOI games.

All of the above is so far removed what I am completely confident the vast vast majority of LOI fans are like. And as I said, I don't think there is anything on this website to explain the general image you portray of LOI fans. So yeah, I'm pi**ed off about it.

So, how to go about solving the problems? I don't think it misrepresents your argument to paraphrase it using Sullivinho's post again: What is absolutely beyond doubt is that everybody will be interested in LOI if it's advertised to them properly. That is the axiom from which all further reasoning must proceed.

Now, I don't think this is any more true about LOI football than it is abour archaeology or Irish stew or anything else. But you do: There's a way to win people over. It just hasn't been successfully tried yet, evidently. In fact, you wonder if we've been trying hard enough: Has it really been tried en masse at all? No doubt, advertising is the way forward: There is a way to crack it. It'll just require a bit of imagination.

Think about that last line Danny. Think about how glibly you dismiss the hard work done by LOI clubs over the years. You think they haven't spent hours racking their brains, thinking about the best ways to get people in the gates? That they haven't tried everything they can think of? Trying their own ideas, or mimicked stuff that worked elsewhere? But all these years, none of them ever realised that it'll just require a bit of imagination.

I'm trying to offer constructive debate. If you don't think a change in attitudes would be at all helpful, just say so; don't try to question my character and "qualifications". There's no need to try and frame me as some sort of "outsider" who first needs to validate himself before having a right to express an opinion on the LOI. I've attended league games for years at various periods of my life (as if I have to justify my opinion...). I won't try to claim I've ever been as dedicated as some of those on here and others - for whom I have great respect (I hope you don't see that as condescending!) - but I'm not coming at this as someone who wishes to disparage the league or cause it harm.

Certainly you're entitled to your opinion, and I would never suggest otherwise. I am also sure that you're not someone who wishes to disparage the league or cause it harm, of course not.

I'm not trying to frame you as an outsider. I don't see it like that. I look at it in terms of who has a good enough understanding of LOI to be familiar with the problems it faces, and knowledge of the past attempts to remedy these problems. And when you portray LOI fans as you have above, dismiss their hard work as you have above, and offer up the analogy you offered earlier about archaeology, I'm not convinced at all by these arguments.

[Stuttgart88]

This article probably deserves a spot in another thread - I can see its relevance to several! - but one thing that stands out is the sheer reach of the brand of English football. Make no mistake, it is a brand, the clubs are brands and they are extremely complex and effective brands.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/...ccer-crazy-mls

It's basically an article on how San Diego is soccer mad, would love a MLS team, is a hotbed of talent but is also a tug of war ground for Mexico and USA for this talent, also loves the EPL but, it speculates, the locals would happily support their own team while following English football from afar.

[Straightstory]

As someone who's been supporting the LOI for over 40 years, BY FAR the main difference I've noticed is how little press coverage the league gets now since I first started going to games. The English game used to get coverage of course, but I'd say the ratio was about 50/50. Now it's about 95/5 in favour of the EPL. (I don't think I'm exaggerating about this). Also, 'star' columnists like Con Houlihan would write regularly about the League. It's unthinkable now that someone like Keith Duggan in The Irish Times (which, somewhat curiously, has become a rabidly GAA newspaper) would do this now.

Also: I would guess he crowds are probably slightly less. (Does anyone have any hard info on this??)

The facilities are slightly better. (Only because they were unspeakably bleak in the 1970s)

The main problem is people's lack of imagination. They can't make the connection between supporting local clubs and these clubs becoming successful as a result of more people going through the turnstiles and creating revenue. (By 'successful' I mean being able to reach the Europa or Champions' League Group stages in Europe - the 'people' don't care about the domestic league).

Have to say - I'm impressed by the intelligent, thoughtful and articulate arguments being made on this thread. At the risk of sounding condescending to our EPL and Celtic obsessed friends, one gets a better brand of poster on the foot.ie League of Ireland message board.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except some of us were 'Celtic-obsessed', because there was no LOI club for miles and my folks wouldn't have been seen dead in there even if there had of been, partly for 'cultural/social' reasons, but mainly because they weren't remotely soccer 'fans' until many years later.

Respect the vast majority of LOI fans have met at Ireland games over the years, even if some are a tad precious about 'their product'.
Especially respect those ones who are local to their clubs and see it as a focal point in their community.

[Dodge]

I also resent the idea that LOI fans are required to be ambassadors for the league and constantly have to justify it and convert people. If I want to be dismissive of other people who don't give it a chance, or sneer at them, it's my choice.

Sorry if I came across that way. I have an issue with "whining", that's all.

If people want to have a pop at arseholes who dismiss the league, that's fine but I wouldn't waste my time with them.

Anyway osarusan spells out most of my feelings on the subject far better than I can.

[Nesta99]

What do you say to those who offer you that "excuse"?

I don't want to make a massive deal out of it in confrontational fashion as you may have used it fairly neutrally (or perhaps unwittingly) and this probably comes across as a bit pedantic on my part, but even the word "excuse" used in this context has loaded connotations and would sound daft - possibly even insulting - to someone with no present active interest in the league. An excuse is "a plea offered in extenuation of a fault or for release from an obligation or a promise". These inactive or latent supporters may have their reasons, but why would or should they ever feel like they have to excuse themselves, as if they're in the wrong and owe you an explanation?

The language proponents use in promotion of the league is very important; it needs to be positive and encouraging. The most effective way to win people over is by making them feel good about getting into something; not by making them feel guilty for being interested in something else. No-one likes to feel like their being coerced, goaded or emotionally blackmailed into or out of something. Do you feel a need to excuse yourself from other local events in Dundalk besides football that you don't bother attending because you have absolutely no interest in them at present? What would you make of people mocking your "excuses" for not partaking in the local church choir or joining the weekly cookery club? Asking someone with no interest in the League of Ireland what their "excuse" is for not attending games would sound as senseless and unreasonable to them as what asking you what your "excuse" was for not going on an archaeology dig in Monaghan next Sunday or for not eating Irish stew right now would sound like to you. You might have unconscious reasons - a simple lack of present interest, most likely, as is your right - but if someone started badgering you to explain yourself or expected you to excuse yourself, you'd rightly think they were on a wind-up, no?

Whoah! That is a major over analysis of the point I was trying to make. I have never and will never be openly dismissive to people who either dismiss LoI outright or those who excuse their absence. There is no interrogation as to why they would not consider their return to Oriel Park on an occasion. This information is volunteered more often than not. The see a scarf, jersey, matchday programme and come over to find out about the game. My honest opinion of the match is given and practically without fail a series of reasons (or in my opinion excuses) get rolled out as to why they were not at the game themselves. The most frustrating one for me is the i quit during the bad times and i dont want to be a glory hunter type of stuff. My own reply is generally along the lines of who would notice, who would care, give it a chance again and if there is no longer any appeal for the local live game so be it - but dont rule it out because a different era caused disillusionment.

[Duffman]

Except some of us were 'Celtic-obsessed', because there was no LOI club for miles and my folks wouldn't have been seen dead in there even if there had of been, partly for 'cultural/social' reasons, but mainly because they weren't remotely soccer 'fans' until many years later.

Respect the vast majority of LOI fans have met at Ireland games over the years, even if some are a tad precious about 'their product'.
Especially respect those ones who are local to their clubs and see it as a focal point in their community.

Ardee? No club for miles? You've got 2 within about 15 miles!!

[nigel-harps1954]

Glasgow is a lot closer than Dundalk, Monaghan or Drogheda to him of course.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ardee? No club for miles? You've got 2 within about 15 miles!!

Except wasn't living in Ardee then...but the North.

At least check yer facts.

[Stuttgart88]

He means Finsbury Park

[Nesta99]

The North Pole!

[gspain01]

As someone who's been supporting the LOI for over 40 years, BY FAR the main difference I've noticed is how little press coverage the league gets now since I first started going to games. The English game used to get coverage of course, but I'd say the ratio was about 50/50. Now it's about 95/5 in favour of the EPL. (I don't think I'm exaggerating about this). Also, 'star' columnists like Con Houlihan would write regularly about the League. It's unthinkable now that someone like Keith Duggan in The Irish Times (which, somewhat curiously, has become a rabidly GAA newspaper) would do this now.

.

Strange but spot on re the Sports section of the Times under Malachy Logan. There is very much a GAA slant on their Sport coverage with domestic football restricted. Shame as Emmett Malone is one of the best football writers. Even their World Cup preview had to be described in GAA terms. It used to be a rugby paper but the likes of Derek Jones and Peter Byrne had plenty of space for football.

My uncle was ran out of a shop in Kerry one summer circa 1970. He could only find the Irish Press and asked the woman behind the counter if she had the Times. "Gerra out of here with your protestant paper. I don't even stock the Independent."

[ArdeeBhoy]

He means Finsbury Park

The North Pole!

Er, Wrong on both counts.

The North of Ireland. You may just have heard of it?


Not known for burgeoning LOI clubs support back then. Or even now.

[ger121]

Except wasn't living in Ardee then...but the North.

At least check yer facts.

How could he check his facts? It's not like all the places you've resided in, are stored somewhere for all of us to access before we post something in reply to one of your posts.

[Stuttgart88]

Strange but spot on re the Sports section of the Times under Malachy Logan. There is very much a GAA slant on their Sport coverage with domestic football restricted. Shame as Emmett Malone is one of the best football writers. Even their World Cup preview had to be described in GAA terms. It used to be a rugby paper but the likes of Derek Jones and Peter Byrne had plenty of space for football.

My uncle was ran out of a shop in Kerry one summer circa 1970. He could only find the Irish Press and asked the woman behind the counter if she had the Times. "Gerra out of here with your protestant paper. I don't even stock the Independent."

Thanks for that. I have felt the Times to be very patronising when it can even be bothered with Irish football.

[Charlie Darwin]

It's not just the GAA heads. The racing correspondent/lead sports writer Brian O'Connor takes every opportunity he can to knock the LOI while talking about something completely different. They're just a reflection of the middle-upper class that makes up the vast majority of their readership.

[ger121]

It always annoys me how the Times calls it the National League. I know it was something to do with not wanting to use a previous sponsor's name but ffs, they could just call it the League of Ireland like everyone else does.

[MeathDrog]

Except wasn't living in Ardee then...but the North.

At least check yer facts.

Forgot there were no clubs in Northern Ireland.

[Nesta99]

Forgot there were no clubs in Northern Ireland.

Wait for the Derry lads to sort that one out!