LOI Club History Discussion

[outspoken]

UCD the model club.

[sadloserkid]

Bray are an amalgamation as well, aren't they?

It's no excuse but I am tired this morning... when I first read this sentence I read amalgamation as abomination. I wasn't even particularly surprised...

[seand]

One for the club history discussion thread..... Shamrock Rovers are calling their new corporate entertainment area the '1899 Suite'- which is odd for a club formed in 1901. The date has been debated time and again, but I thought 1901 had been pretty well nailed down, especially by club historian Robert Goggins. The only argument in favour of 1899 was that 1899 used to be painted on the gates at Milltown. I wonder was there some new information that came to light to suggest 1899 is right, or was it a conscious attempt to add an extra layer of gravitas by pushing the club back into the 19th century.

[Northsider]

One for the club history discussion thread..... Shamrock Rovers are calling their new corporate entertainment area the '1899 Suite'- which is odd for a club formed in 1901. The date has been debated time and again, but I thought 1901 had been pretty well nailed down, especially by club historian Robert Goggins. The only argument in favour of 1899 was that 1899 used to be painted on the gates at Milltown. I wonder was there some new information that came to light to suggest 1899 is right, or was it a conscious attempt to add an extra layer of gravitas by pushing the club back into the 19th century.

1914 would be a better guess.

Like most football clubs, Shamrock Rovers had very humble beginnings. The club was formed in 1899 in the city of Dublin in an area where the districts of Ringsend and Irishtown meet. The very first meeting took place at number four Irishtown Road but it wasn't until the second meeting was held around the corner in Shamrock Avenue that the name Shamrock Rovers was decided upon.
The new club immediately registered with the Leinster Football Association but spent the first two years playing friendly games. It didn't take long though for the first piece of silverware to arrive as Rovers were crowned County Dublin League winners in 1904/05. That same season the club also captured the Leinster Junior Cup when they beat Dundalk 2-1 in the final at Dalymount Park.
Shamrock Rovers then took a further step up when, in 1905, they joined the Leinster Junior League and went on to win the LJL league title as well as retain the Leinster Junior Cup. Within the few years since formation the club had grown considerably. The committee believed that the time was right to take a further step forward and they entered the team into the Leinster Senior League for the 1906/07 season. However, as the season began it became obvious that Rovers were suffering problems in trying to get players out and when they failed to secure a private ground, which they were required to do as members of the LSL, they were forced to pull out of football.
The club was revived in 1914 and entered the Leinster Junior League winning the league title at the first go.

[EatYerGreens]

My understanding has been that Waterford dropped out in 1941 in a row over player bonuses. The club reached the FAI Cup Final losing to Cork United after a replay and finished level on points with United thus ensuring a playoff for the title that never took place due to the row.

Legend has it Limerick bought the blue Waterford jerseys and switched colours to blue/white from red and white stripes from the 1942/43 season. I've never been able to verify it but heard talk of it as a very young boy on the popularside in the early 1970's when many of those claiming it would have been going in the early 1940's. We certainly started playing in blue & white from 1942/43 and have almost ever since (apart from the seasons in Pat Grace's horse racing colours).

Waterford Celtic actually were playing years afterwards. They lost the 1938 Munster Junior Cup Final to Glasheen - http://www.munsterfa.com/previouswinners.html

I tend to view these changes as the same club. Rules were lax in previous years and it was easy enough to liquidate a club and a new club take their place in the league.

I have a strange recollection that Limerick United played in red and white stripes ? Maybe as their away kit ?

[EatYerGreens]

I think there's no valid reason not to push the formation year back to 1927, as it goes. Waterford Celtic were formed in that year, and played three seasons in the Munster Senior League before applying, and being accepted, to the Free State League under the same name. They only changed it to Waterford AFC just before the 1930/31 season kicked off, and were still referred to as Celtic in many newspaper reports for months afterwards.

The 1940s hiatus is interesting. Unlike the earlier gap from 1932-34, the club had dropped out of senior football altogether for four seasons, but when they returned to the League of Ireland it was with some of the same players, staff and directors, and it was not seen in the national press as anything other than a return of the old club.
A report from June 1945 in the local paper did talk of a "meeting of shareholders of the newly-formed Waterford Association Football Club," which presumably is where Waterford AFC (1945) comes about, but the very next paragraph begins: "The sub-committee submitted a report of their work in connection with the club's re-admission to the league," and there is further mention of a successful "request for re-admission to the League of Ireland."
So it seems, despite a new legal (or business) entity being formed, that in the view of the national press (local press a little more ambiguously), and more importantly the League itself, it was a continuation of the old club.

A general meeting in September 1982 saw a vote to disband the board of Waterford FC (1945) and form a new group under Waterford United FC (1982), with the club rebranded and re-badged as a result. Some indeed see this as a new entity, but certainly on the playing front the change-over here was seamless from one season to the next, way more so than in 1945 (six of the team that played the last league game of 1981/82 featured in the first one of 1982/83, for example).

Some research I did a while back came up with a different formation story for the original Waterford FC.

It suggested that the club had its roots in a team called “YoungFavourites” which was formed in 1930 and played in local football competitions in Waterford. They used to draw good crowds to a pitch/venue called Ballyneesagh, and the level of support encouraged the idea that they shouldseek to have a Waterford team elected to the LOI.

Does any of that sound right or familiar to you Stann ?

[stann]

Some research I did a while back came up with a different formation story for the original Waterford FC.

It suggested that the club had its roots in a team called “YoungFavourites” which was formed in 1930 and played in local football competitions in Waterford. They used to draw good crowds to a pitch/venue called Ballyneesagh, and the level of support encouraged the idea that they shouldseek to have a Waterford team elected to the LOI.

Does any of that sound right or familiar to you Stann ?

Not right, I don't think, EatYerGreens, though some of the info is significant.

Young Favourites were a junior side that played alongside Celtic in the early Waterford league. As an example, as I type I'm looking at a list of the Free State Junior Cup results involving Waterford area sides from the last Sunday in 1929, which reads:
Waterford City 1 - 5 O'Connell Celtic
Waterford Celtic 3 - 0 Hibernians
Shamrock Rovers 3 - 0 Parnell Celtic
Tramore Celtic 1`- 2 St Joseph's
Young Favourites 5 - 5 Tramore Rookies

The Waterford Celtic here are their junior XI, as the Munster Senior League side the same weekend were being pulled out of the hat in the Munster Senior Cup draw, and were gearing up for an FAI Senior Cup appearance against the mighty Brideville the following Sunday (they only lost 1-0, by the way, regarded as quite an eyebrow-raising result!)

It's quite possible that Young Favourites played out of Ballinaneesagh though, which is where Waterford FC played their first five league games while they were waiting for Kilcohan Park to be brought up to snuff, so that connection is there. That ground no longer exists, BTW, there's a big cemetery there now. Both the junior and MSL Waterford Celtic sides played their home games in Ozier Park, which is still a fine ground.

There's no question that Waterford AFC were a continuation of Waterford Celtic however. For example, an article in the Irish Independent of Friday, July 4th 1930 is headlined "12 CLUBS FOR FREE STATE LEAGUE" and sub-headed "Waterford Celtic and Dolphin elected." They didn't change the name to Waterford AFC until the season was about to kick-off. And, as said, the team were continuously referred to as Celtic in the press for months after the change.

[EatYerGreens]

Not right, I don't think, EatYerGreens, though some of the info is significant.

Young Favourites were a junior side that played alongside Celtic in the early Waterford league. As an example, as I type I'm looking at a list of the Free State Junior Cup results involving Waterford area sides from the last Sunday in 1929, which reads:
Waterford City 1 - 5 O'Connell Celtic
Waterford Celtic 3 - 0 Hibernians
Shamrock Rovers 3 - 0 Parnell Celtic
Tramore Celtic 1`- 2 St Joseph's
Young Favourites 5 - 5 Tramore Rookies

The Waterford Celtic here are their junior XI, as the Munster Senior League side the same weekend were being pulled out of the hat in the Munster Senior Cup draw, and were gearing up for an FAI Senior Cup appearance against the mighty Brideville the following Sunday (they only lost 1-0, by the way, regarded as quite an eyebrow-raising result!)

It's quite possible that Young Favourites played out of Ballinaneesagh though, which is where Waterford FC played their first five league games while they were waiting for Kilcohan Park to be brought up to snuff, so that connection is there. That ground no longer exists, BTW, there's a big cemetery there now. Both the junior and MSL Waterford Celtic sides played their home games in Ozier Park, which is still a fine ground.

There's no question that Waterford AFC were a continuation of Waterford Celtic however. For example, an article in the Irish Independent of Friday, July 4th 1930 is headlined "12 CLUBS FOR FREE STATE LEAGUE" and sub-headed "Waterford Celtic and Dolphin elected." They didn't change the name to Waterford AFC until the season was about to kick-off. And, as said, the team were continuously referred to as Celtic in the press for months after the change.

Excellent stuff Stann.

So is the old Ballinaneesagh ground now St Otteran's Cemetery on the west of the town ? And did Waterford Celtic play at Kilcohan Park themselves as well.

[Partizan]

AFAIK, Waterford also played at Ballinakil which is Waterpark RFC's ground.

[Charlie Darwin]

One for the club history discussion thread..... Shamrock Rovers are calling their new corporate entertainment area the '1899 Suite'- which is odd for a club formed in 1901. The date has been debated time and again, but I thought 1901 had been pretty well nailed down, especially by club historian Robert Goggins. The only argument in favour of 1899 was that 1899 used to be painted on the gates at Milltown. I wonder was there some new information that came to light to suggest 1899 is right, or was it a conscious attempt to add an extra layer of gravitas by pushing the club back into the 19th century.

The Heritage Trust recently discovered a newspaper report from 1899 on a match involving Shamrock Rovers from Ringsend. It was in the programme at some point last season but not sure if it was put online.

[gspain01]

I have a strange recollection that Limerick United played in red and white stripes ? Maybe as their away kit ?

Yes red and white stripes was used as an away kit by Limerick 37 anyway and Limerick FC. It hasn't been used as a home kit since 1942.

[stann]

So is the old Ballinaneesagh ground now St Otteran's Cemetery on the west of the town ? And did Waterford Celtic play at Kilcohan Park themselves as well.

That's it yes. I'd always assumed the Ballinaneesagh ground is now the current Waterford Crystal complex, on the other side of the main road, but apparently not, it really was where (part of) the cemetery now is.
Celtic would never have played at Kilcohan, AFAIK. Ozier Park was their ground, and initially was to be redeveloped at the massive cost of £300, but at some point it was deemed inadequate for League purposes, so Kilcohan (mentioned in one place as a horse racing venue, funnily enough) was chosen instead. Three stands were built or redeveloped, the improvements finally ready in November 1930.

AFAIK, Waterford also played at Ballinakil which is Waterpark RFC's ground.

I've heard this before too, but haven't come across when just yet. Mind you, I only this week stumbled upon Ozier being used for a league game in 1931, so surely will hit it sooner or later.

The Heritage Trust recently discovered a newspaper report from 1899 on a match involving Shamrock Rovers from Ringsend. It was in the programme at some point last season but not sure if it was put online.

Funny enough, I can corroborate the story here, if not the report. Page 3 of the Evening Herald of Monday, April 10 1899 has a two line piece that reads, under the heading ASSOCIATION FOOTBALL:

SHAMROCK ROVERS v ROSEMOUNT -
This match was played yesterday and resulted in a draw.

Short and sweet. I imagine the report printed in the programme was from a different paper!

[Paddyfield]

Lest we forget Galway FC.
And of course Home Farm Everton FC and Newcastle United FC from County Limerick

But my favourite was Saint Patrick's Athletic incorporating Saint Francis Football Club. That was the official name of the football club that played in Richmond Park for one season in the Pat Dolan era. Hence: The Supersaints.

[EatYerGreens]

Lest we forget Galway FC.
And of course Home Farm Everton FC and Newcastle United FC from County Limerick

But my favourite was Saint Patrick's Athletic incorporating Saint Francis Football Club. That was the official name of the football club that played in Richmond Park for one season in the Pat Dolan era. Hence: The Supersaints.

When was "Galway FC" ?

[pineapple stu]

When they rejoined the league in what - 2013?

Just for one season only, then back to Galway United

[Hitman]

Nice piece from Emmet Malone on the rivalry between Pat Dolan and Ollie Byrne. (Trigger warning: contains Paul Marney references.)

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/socc...olan-1.2983358

[Comic Book Guy]

I'll have to root out the book written about 30 years ago about the history of Rugby in Cobh, the author whose name escapes me said there was a Cobh Ramblers team playing briefly in the 1880's albeit in the oval ball code. It's possible the present club took the name from them as I'm sure some of the founders would have had a memory of that name. While I think there are a number of older clubs in Munster I think Ramblers claim an unbroken existence sine 1922.

[EatYerGreens]

I'll have to root out the book written about 30 years ago about the history of Rugby in Cobh, the author whose name escapes me said there was a Cobh Ramblers team playing briefly in the 1880's albeit in the oval ball code. It's possible the present club took the name from them as I'm sure some of the founders would have had a memory of that name. While I think there are a number of older clubs in Munster I think Ramblers claim an unbroken existence sine 1922.

Ramblers appear to have begun life as a hockey club that played football every so often, so would be intrigued to hear more about this CBC.

[TonyD]

Lest we forget Galway FC.
And of course Home Farm Everton FC and Newcastle United FC from County Limerick

But my favourite was Saint Patrick's Athletic incorporating Saint Francis Football Club. That was the official name of the football club that played in Richmond Park for one season in the Pat Dolan era. Hence: The Supersaints.

No, Dolan coined the Supersaints name before that ill fated merger attempt. He tried Dublin Saints, but that didn't catch on. Thank God that whole project was quietly ditched.

[oriel]

This might not be correct thread but I can't find one closer. Can any Pats fans shed some light on the chap Christy McElliot, ex player, he's the guy on Operation Transformation, he lost his leg in an accident over 10 years ago. He said on the show a few weeks back that he won a league title with Pats, he didn't say the year but I'd be guessing due to his own age (47) that he was referring to 95/96.

I can't remember him playing at all and his name doesn't ring a bell, did he only play a few games, or was he mostly used as a sub or maybe joined late in that league winning season ?