Identity Crisis FC

[Marco]

The UCD A Championship side are in action against their U-18s in a jumpers for goalposts affair the same day. Should keep us all too busy to get over to protest

What happens if there is a clash of gear! it might delay the kick off & the fine sent to Cobh Ramblers

[barney]

to be honest i dont understand the whole "quality" argument that people always pull out when asked why support english teams and the fact that the premiership is "on our doorstep" as it was put to me the other day, but surely then why don't all the people in france support the premiership considering its only across the channel?? or all austrian people support the german league because its a higher standard??

also the whole quality argument thats pulled out always fall down when i ask them would they still support united or whoever if they were relegated to league 1? the answer i get back is always yeah but surely this makes the whole quality argument fall down because the quality would fall so much?? the look of puzzlement on the faces when i bring this up is always comical and so so so sad in another way

If you really think it has nothing to do with quality, then you're living in Disneyland. It's a combination of other things as well though. Culturally, we are a lot closer to England than France is. We are bombarded with their media, be it TV, radio or newspapers. That's bound to rub off.

All of our best players go to England to play. Keane, Duff, Given, Dunne etc. How many of them played in the eL? None. Truth be told, any of the eL players who haven't gone to England would love to and those that did never made it. Can you really expect the public to buy the idea that the eL is what they should be supporting when the players would much rather be playing in England.

The quality thing does stand up in my book. The same Man U fan would not have started supporting United if they were a 4th Division team when he started supporting football. I find that 99.99% of English football supporters support their team for a logical reason; be it that the side was a good one when they started following football or that there is an Irish connection (I know Irish West Brom fans who follow them because of Giles, ditto Leeds, etc). However, once they are in for a penny they are in for a pound because through thick and thin they will stick with those teams. That's part of being a football fan.

I also don't buy the theory that Irish people just aren't interested in live football and if Man U played here every week people wouldn't go and watch them. LOI used to get massive crowds in the 50s and before that. However, when it became apparent that the LOI was light years behind other leagues, the crowds started to dwindle.

It makes me laugh when I read on here that 'barstoolers' know nothing about football. I know 'barstoolers' who have a tremendous knowledge of the game. Likewise, I know eL fans who know squat about the game (and vice versa).

Believe me, I love the eL and the thrill of live football. But if we can't acknowledge the reasons that people in this country support English football, then we are condemned to forever remain in the state we're in.

Depsite all that I had a good chuckle at the first post in this thread. Quality.

[Sheridan]

I think the biggest fallacy in the quality argument is the notion that your average stay-at-home Irish football fan can tell a good game from a bad one.

[skitz3]

I find that 99.99% of English football supporters support their team for a logical reason; be it that the side was a good one when they started following football or that there is an Irish connection (I know Irish West Brom fans who follow them because of Giles, ditto Leeds, etc).

Except the English themselves who follow their team because they are local, not because they are good. That my friend is logic, not the tripe you just churned out.

[barney]

I think the biggest fallacy in the quality argument is the notion that your average stay-at-home Irish football fan can tell a good game from a bad one.

I think a bigger fallacy is the one that you aquire some Giles-like footballing insight just because you go and watch your local team.

[skitz3]

If Andy "Unbelievable" Gray tells barstoolers they've just witnessed a great game they believe it. I mean just look at the effect it had when he started telling them the Premiership was the best league in the world, straight away without viewing another league they all went around repeating it, like sheep.

[barney]

Except the English themselves who follow their team because they are local, not because they are good. That my friend is logic, not the tripe you just churned out.

Maybe the wording of my original post wasn't all that clear, but I meant Irish supporters of English football, not the English themselves (for whom locality is the biggest factor).

[skitz3]

Maybe the wording of my original post wasn't all that clear, but I meant Irish supporters of English football, not the English themselves (for whom locality is the biggest factor).

Well my wording was clear, the reason football is where it is today is because local fans went to see their local team. I have no problem with someone who wants to travel to England to see a team, so long as he'll also travel to Tolka, Richmond, RSC etc. aswell.

[Réiteoir]

that i can definitely agree with, i didn't know bohs fans could be so entertaining

as entertaining as a 6-4 win at Santry!

[Sheridan]

I think a bigger fallacy is the one that you aquire some Giles-like footballing insight just because you go and watch your local team.

LOL.

If you think Giles represents the apotheosis of footballing knowledge then you definitely need to broaden your horizons.

[barney]

Well my wording was clear, the reason football is where it is today is because local fans went to see their local team. I have no problem with someone who wants to travel to England to see a team, so long as he'll also travel to Tolka, Richmond, RSC etc. aswell.

Do you really think that something which hasn't happened in 40+ years is likely to start happening now? If not, why not (and try to refrain from the 'sheep' argument)?

And my original post about why Irish people support English teams wasn't necessarily logic I agree with but, to me, that's how/why it happens. Very few of my mates support Chelsea coz they were muck when I was growing up. There will be a lot of Chelsea fans in years to come because they are successful right now. If Irish people don't start supporting the most successful sides in England then how do you explain the popularity of Liverpool, Man U and Arsenal over lower league clubs?

[barney]

LOL.

If you think Giles represents the apotheosis of footballing knowledge then you definitely need to broaden your horizons.

Giles is one of the finest footballing brains there is. I'm sure you might consider reading Jonathan Wilson books broadening your horizons and expanding your knowledge of the game but listen to what Giles says; its ingeniously simple.

[amaccann]

The support issue has nothing to do with quality; ask any Liverpool fan for the last few years (joke!)

What it boils down to is this:
Supporting Irish clubs == Effort.
Supporting English clubs == No Effort.

And this is the Irish we're talking about, so we might as well give up now.

[barney]

The support issue has nothing to do with quality; ask any Liverpool fan for the last few years (joke!)

What it boils down to is this:
Supporting Irish clubs == Effort.
Supporting English clubs == No Effort.

And this is the Irish we're talking about, so we might as well give up now.

LOL I'll concede that point on Liverpool.

Seriously though, how do you explain the big crowds the GAA get? The big crowds the national team gets? The amount of supporters that travel over the water every week to watch English football? That all takes effort.

I don't buy the whole SKY TV/sheep thing either. I do think they have done a tremendous job marketing their product but long before they existed, English football was far more popular here than the domestic game. I had a mate growing up whose dad used to play LOI Premier Divison football but my mate never really went to watch them play. He had no interest in LOI football and this was before the Premiership existed. And he knows quite a lot about the game.

We can stick our heads in the sand and pretend that all the people who prefer English football are nothing but mindless sheep who know nothing about the game but the reality is somewhat different.

[barney]

just as matter of interest do you follow the irish national team?? and if so why?? it can't be because of the quality or the fact that they are a top winning side and it certainly can't be because you feel patriotic pride for the team..

also you didn't acknowledge the fact i also mentioned the austrian-german thing and they are very very close culturally but you don't find all austrian people following german teams

also when you are mentioning irish people and english teams could you refrain from using the word supporting because thats not what irish people do they follow who ever happens to be winning at the time, they have to look down to see what crest they are kissing today which is the complete anthesis of what being a real football fan is all about

*edit the point about barstoolers not knowing anyhting about the game is basically because can't make up their own minds because they don't go to the games, they make up their minds simply by agreeing/disagreeing with what andy gray et al have to say, they dont form opinions for themselves

I support the Irish national team and I support my local team as well. Why can't I feel patriotic pride towards them? Or have you just assumed that I don't support my local side just because I've defended those that support English football over the domestic game?

I'm not too familiar with Austria to be honest. Does the majority of their national team play in the Bundesliga? Do the Austrians buy German papers, watch German TV?

Irish people do support English teams. You might think you have a monopoly on football support because you go and watch you local team but a lot of Irish people travel to England to watch games while the majority of those that don't have Sky Sports subscriptions and buy the replica shirts. A percentage of that money goes to the English club so, therefore, they are supporting them.

Really so every football fan in Ireland that supports English football has the exact same opinion about everything? Dear oh dear.

[Réiteoir]

Really so every football fan in Ireland that supports English football has the exact same opinion about everything? Dear oh dear.

Yes they do - they think the LoI is "a bag of sh*te" and that the Premiership is the bestest best thing in the world ever and that Stevie G will never leave his beloved Liverpool Albion

[barney]

Yes they do - they think the LoI is "a bag of sh*te" and that the Premiership is the bestest best thing in the world ever and that Stevie G will never leave his beloved Liverpool Albion

LOL I hope you're trying to be funny.

[galah]

i love the way we tink its just as Irish thing that everyone follows the PL ...seen an articule there recently (sorry cant remember where) with some guy giving out about the state of local soccer in Nigeria with no one interested in going to games because they only interested in the PL. anyone who has travelled across Asia or South America will see premiership on morning, noon and night with their only leagues floundering. I go to my clubs LOI games but will happily sit my arse on a barstool and watch PL games too ...dont see a problem in that

[pete]

You fail to realise that bandwagons are the greatest event for the casual supporter. Bandwagons are always big events with big crowds so even if you lose you will feel you are part of something. The trick of the bandwagon is to convince yourself you are a real fan & that you really bleed for your team on the inside.

Can't speak for other countries but as a nation sport is really popular but live attendances are relatively small across all sports (few large GAA crowds does not change this). Just look at the amount of sport on Irish channels.

[barney]

You fail to realise that bandwagons are the greatest event for the casual supporter. Bandwagons are always big events with big crowds so even if you lose you will feel you are part of something. The trick of the bandwagon is to convince yourself you are a real fan & that you really bleed for your team on the inside.

Can't speak for other countries but as a nation sport is really popular but live attendances are relatively small across all sports (few large GAA crowds does not change this). Just look at the amount of sport on Irish channels.

Are they that small relatively speaking? Not doubting what you are saying, just wondered if there are numbers to back that up. I was at a GAA qualifier earlier this year, dead duck of a game and 6,000+ were at it despite the result being a formality. Seems, relatively speaking, that's a decent crowd.

It is easy to just dismiss people as bandwagoners, and there is an argument to do so, but you are simplifying it somewhat. Most people I know who support Premiership/English teams, and I'm talking lads who support everyone from Liverpool, United and Arsenal through to Spurs, Man City, Southampton, Leeds and Forest have done so for two decades. Some of those aren't exactly the bandwagons of glory-hunters.

Someone said earlier that your average 'barstooler' won't know a good game from a bad one and so the quality argument is null and void. Even if that was the case, and I don't believe it is, you don't need an in-depth knowledge of football to see that if all your international players play in a foreign league and all the players in your domestic competition would give their left arm to play in that foreign league or the tier below it, that the quality in that foreign league is infinitely better.