James McCarthy M Celtic b.1990

[Stuttgart88]

Pure propaganda. I put more weight on Paul O'Shea's opinion.

[DeLorean]

Martinez view reminds me of an interview with Xabi Alonso a couple of years back. He was basically talking about the difference in attitude between the English and the Spanish and how players like Michael Carrick's contribution are undervalued. Perhaps something similar applies to Paul with regards McCarthy.

It's hard to judge England in South Africa but maybe they failed to gel despite having excellent players. Sometimes it seems the English don't rate those who make the team work rather than standing out themselves. You shouldn't necessarily pick the best players; you have to have a collective identity."In other words, don't waste 10 years trying to crowbar Gerrard and Frank Lampard into the team. Alonso dodges the bullet. "Hey," he says. "That's a press debate. I'm not saying that. But the collective ideal hasn't always been there. Paul Scholes maybe hasn't had the international career he should have. Or Michael Carrick: he makes those around him better, regardless of the fact that he's not the one who scores the most goals, or a great tackler."
There is a pause as Alonso reaches, again, the crux of the issue. A single English word he returns to that, unpacked, analysed and investigated, explains much. "I don't think tackling is a quality," he says. "It is a recurso, something you have to resort to, not a characteristic of your game. At Liverpool I used to read the matchday programme and you'd read an interview with a lad from the youth team. They'd ask: age, heroes, strong points, etc. He'd reply: 'Shooting and tackling'. I can't get into my head that football development would educate tackling as a quality, something to learn, to teach, a characteristic of your play. How can that be a way of seeing the game? I just don't understand football in those terms. Tackling is a [last] resort, and you will need it, but it isn't a quality to aspire to, a definition. It's hard to change because it's so rooted in the English football culture, but I don't understand it.

[geysir]

Martinez (and most acute observers) reckon the team are feeding off McCarthy's assuredness and football intelligence. Paul has an opposite opinion, he thinks McCarthy is a bit fragile and needs better players around him, to feed off them.

[tetsujin1979]

Does playing with better players enhance McCarthy's strengths, or did playing with weaker players expose his weaknesses?

[Charlie Darwin]

All this suspense is killing me.

[paul_oshea]

Richie Rooney would get the best out of mccarthy for his local pub team the Lobster anyway.

I think what Man UTD are sorely lacking is Glenn Whelan, what I or less acute observers can't see but which I'm sure you guys can is that he is so subtle its almost unnoticable but without him playing at full strength for full games Stoke would be playing in the lower level of the Championship. And because of his game dropping a level the last few months Stoke have now found themselves in a relegation battle and not upper mid table where they would be with a fully fit and functioning Glenn Whelan running the show - subtly of course without standing out. I just can't appreciate this sutblety of "making the team work".

[Stuttgart88]

C'mon Paul, everyone knows that many teams have that "tidy and effective without being overly conspicuous" player. I remember nobody ever thinking that much of Matthieu Flamini in his first stint at Arsenal but Fabregas thrived when he was there. People used to say Roy Keane was overrated and for years I said Bryan Robson was overrated, yet everyone who played with him swore by his importance.

I'm not saying McCarthy is all of this - well, I am because I've said before that he's a quietly effective player! - but the answer to your point above is that that type of player exists so your post above is daft. Whether you think McCarthy is that player or not is a matter of opinion.

Funny, but I was reading a good article on the uselessness of stats and "heat maps" yesterday. One pundit was complaining that Soldado spent too much time on the halfway line against Man City until it was pointed out that he took 6 or 7 kick offs! The same article said that you can always blame someone for any goal scored. I thought of you when I read that!

[paul_oshea]

Stats are nothing without context stutts. You should know that.

Then again with context they can also be misleading.

My point was not about that role not existing.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think what Stutts is talking about is 'unseen' work - the things a player does that mean he doesn't have to do far more noticeable things later. I expect Paul would counter by saying if it was such important work you'd be able to see it. geysir would say something facetious and eight pages of stats and salmon puns later, we'd all agree to make snide remarks about it in future.

[paul_oshea]

,...at my expense

But you got the jist of it.

Tho my own subtle contribution was missed a la james McCarthy earlier.

[geysir]

If Paul doesn't see the work then it's unseen.
Or is it, if Paul doesn't see the unseen work, then it remains unseen work.
Paul I thought you would reply that the acute observers watch the games live

Charlie you should know by now that I'd only bother with stats, just to highlight a piece of bull being pedalled

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

If Paul doesn't see the work then it's unseen.
Or is it, if Paul doesn't see the unseen work, then it remains unseen work.

Charlie you should know by now that I'd only bother with stats, just to highlight a piece of bull being pedalled.

"Robbie 6 goals in 15 games for Liverpool Keane".

[geysir]

"Robbie 6 goals in 15 games for Liverpool Keane".

Eh, smart ass who are you quoting there?
Read my actual quote carefully and then compare with the recorded stats.

"Robbie, totally out of sorts at an epl club, started 15 epl games for Liverpool, had 5 goals and 6 assists"

[paul_oshea]

Liverpool with robbie in the squad 2009: played 23 points 48. Average 2.08 points per game.
Liverpool after robbies sale in jan 09: played 15 points 38. Average 2.53 points per game.

Why can't I thank on mobile?

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Eh, smart ass who are you quoting there?
Read my actual quote carefully and then compare with the recorded stats.

"Robbie, totally out of sorts at an epl club, started 15 epl games for Liverpool, had 5 goals and 6 assists"

Yes. I'm being the smart ass constantly making "subtle" barbs on myriad threads and comparing Robbie Keane's stats from 6 years ago with Shane Long's stats from this season while pontificating about the manipulation of statistics. Yes. Robbie Keane's record at Liverpool, Spurs (second spell), West Ham and Villa is quite similar to Long's record at West Brom and Hull. Excellent work, Columbo.

[SkStu]

And with that, TOWK tells the foot.ie old guard he's here to stay and he'll go toe to toe with any muthafukka!

[DeLorean]

Paul, just in case you thought I was being condescending with my Alonso post, I wasn't. I didn't see what was so great about Gibson's performances for Everton when the fans were apparently delighted with him. Many a battle I had with Irwin3 you might remember! Any game I saw at that time I didn't think he was very influential at all, adequate at best. I was either watching the wrong games, blind to his effectiveness or who knows... maybe I wasn't wrong at all. Same thing probably applies to you regarding McCarthy I feel. You are a pretty harsh critic though, as your analysis of McGeady's ten minute stint at Anfield proved!

I don't see the relevance of Liverpool's season improving after selling Robbie Keane. Most decent sides improve as the season goes on, certainly ones that challenge for titles. The big thing for me is that they were left with N'Gog as the only back up to Torres... the only striker option to really go for the win in the final few minutes of games they needed a goal. Like I said on some other thread, Macheda turned two points into six that same season for United, which was the margin between the two clubs at the end. Keane was certainly more capable than N'Gog of doing something similar.

As for the thanking... I don't think I can either on the foot.ie app, but I always select 'Request Desktop Site' from the options.

[Stuttgart88]

Without going all Donald Rumsfeld on it, there are unseen things we can see and unseen things we can't see. I think McCarthy does the seen unseen work. That's how I see it anyway.

[Stuttgart88]

Slighty daft, but in context, when I played in nets my captain never really appreciated me but I had a great rapport with my centre backs. Loads of times in games I'd simply collect a through ball in behind me CBs just inside the 18 yard line. My CB would give me a nod as if to say "well read". If I did it 5 times in a game he'd say afterwards "great game" but my captain wouldnt have had a clue, saying I did eff all again.

[paul_oshea]

So you do see and are not of the unseen unseen?

I don't know i was having an argument with one of the lads on whatsapp and he produced that stat as part of his pro liverpool anti robbie rant. He tried to tell me that is enough evidence in itself to prove robbies ineffectiveness, I suggested at best without having any idea how many goals were conceded previously against goals scoared that the stat was pretty useless.