Future of Irish Domestic Soccer Meeting

[sonofstan]

Just back from this; decent turn out given the weather maybe 60-70 people? preponderance of Bohs/ Shels fans given the location though lots of others as well.
Panel consisted of (and spoke in this order) Daire Whelan, author of Who Stole our Game?, Stephen McGuinness of the PFAI, Gerry Conway, Bohs Secretary, John Byrne PRO of Shamrock Rovers and Gerry McDermott from the FAI. Con Murphy chaired.

DW read a chunk of his book which - I haven't read it - on the evidence of this was long on moody backward glances, a bit short on analysis. Thought football had to learn lessons from the GAA and the IRFU about marketing to families, and to the casual uncommitted 'sports fan'

SmcG. strongly supported the merger with the FAI, saying they - the PFAI - had made more progress talking to the FAI than they ever had with the league. Said the new standard contract would revolutionise the game here; also applauded a new benevolent fund being set up by the PFAI in association with the FAI

GC said Bohs would be looking to get to euro group stages in 5 years, that the clubs needed to work together for the good of the league - and that most did - making it fairly clear which one he figured didn't. Sean Connor was there. Said partnership with DCU was good for the club and the players, in that it gives them the chance to do degrees to prepare themselves for life after football

JB went through the'how we rescued rovers' routine; talked about putting down roots in the community, had a moment with GC, where they congratulated each other on being easy to work with.

GmcD came out fighting; best prepared presentation - accused DW of ignoring all that the FAI was doing to rescue football in order not to disturb his thesis; said Greyhound racing showed the way; said hoolies were the biggest deterrent and the biggest obstacle.

Questions tended towards the monologue rather than the question; mostly directed at Gerry McDermott re; hooliganism, possible all ireland league, facilities or lack of them, the usefullness or otherwise of the comparison with rugby, the lack of links between junior football and the EL clubs, and, in the other direction, between the national team and the league teams - good suggestion, I thought, from a Rovers fan who said she thought all international tickets should be distributed through clubs the way the GAA distributes All Ireland tickets; she thought the effect would be to awaken people to the existence and presence of LoI clubs.

I've left out loads; it was a good discussion, and I hope the FAI continue being prepared to be open to such forums; although there was a touch of the una duce, una voce about criticism of the league in one of GmcD's answers. Problem i guess was that it was still just us talking ourselves - foot.ie goes live; John Delaney or Ollie B. up there would been interesting..

[fbtn]

Good man. Thanks for that.

[CollegeTillIDie]

I would have gone to the meeting had I remembered the date time and venue. However the summary outlined in the first posting on this thread has sparked a thought or two. There was mention of a comparison with rugby.

Well one comparison with rugby is this. There are only 4 fully professional teams in Ireland below international level at Rugby and that covers the entire Island. The fully professional players are all contracted to the IRFU , who pay the bills.

The teams are funded by the revenues generated by the IRFU from international games .The provincial unions are responsible for paying for the coaching facilities and travelling and accomodation of the teams. This is paid for out of gate receipts from everything from Schools Cup Finals right the way up to Magniers League and Heineken League fixtures.

So basically to mirror that in soccer. There would be 4 fully professional clubs and all players would be contracted to the FAI League and they would allocate players to each club, as is the case in the Major League Soccer in the USA. The clubs would use their gate receipts to pay for everything except wages. And then presumably if players were transferred abroad the FAI would get the fees.
It is an interesting model and might go along way to making the League here more viable. So it is a possibility that the recently agreed standard playing contracts with the PFAI might well be a first step on the way to this.
The financial viability of this might be predicated on three things 1) The continued box office success of the Senior International team 2) The continued progress of FAI/EL clubs in European Club competitions 3) as a follow on from that the imminent qualification for the Group stages of either UEFA Cup or Champions League itself.

For Heineken Cup soccer equivalent read UEFA Cup/Intertoto Cup / Champions League.
For Magniers League soccer equivalent read Setanta Cup.

[ifk101]

I think the idea about international tickets being solely allocated via LOI clubs is a good idea. The only problem I see is that many parts of the country don't have a local LOI club.

On the issue of facilities, there has been a massive improvement in recent years on this front - if you compare how things were in 1996 with how things are in 2006, it's clear that grounds have progressed. Whilst saying this, it's also going to be difficult to provide top facilities throughout the LOI unless more groundsharing takes place, not just within football but with other sports as well.

I wouldn't favour the rugby route - there was an established supporter association with the provinces prior to professionalism, (have Munster ever stop talking about their win over the All-Blacks?), so it was logical for the IRFU to take the route on the professionalism road that they did. Put bluntly, no Irish football supporter identifies himself with their province, with one exception of course.

[sonofstan]

CTID - one of the questions from the floor kind of suggested what you've outlined in detail; I have to say, oy feeling is that the only limited thing LoI football has going for it is the fanatical loyalty people feel for their clubs - I couldn't see myelf going out to support a Dublin United in the Uefa cup, rather than Bohs, and there's no guarantee that if you throw away the loyalties of the people like us, you're going to replace us with converts from Rugger and Bogball.

ifk 101 - I don't think the suggestion was necessarily that only LoI clubs distribute tickets - there are junior clubs everywhere in the country, even, or especially, in the areas where league clubs are thin on the ground.

[Kingdom]

Yeah but CTID, are you suggesting that there should be amalgamations a la Connacht Munster Leinster Ulster, or that the existing teams continue but roughly use the blueprint of the IRFU for finances?

My take on the competitions are this.
League Championship
FAI Challenge Cup
Fai League Cup
Provincial Cup

Setanta Cup for those who qualify as well as the Euro cups.

To use CTID's example obviousdly the Euro's would still be the equivilant of the Heiniken cup. Would it be possible to expand the Setanta Cup and reduce the League championship. As it stands the League will eventually have teams playing 9 other teams 4 times a season giving 36 games . Why not invite all the teams in the top leagues of the eL and the North and expand that competition? The league could be reduced to a straight forward home and away system of 18 games. It might seem rubbish but bear in mind the Argentinian League has the Opentura(sp?) and Clausera championships.

If the season runs from say Mar to Nov the fixtures could run something like this:

March: League Cup (holders get a bye into group) have an open draw to decide who goes through to groups. This would produce 10 winners plus the holders gives 11 teams. You could have one group of 3 and two groups of four with the 3 group winners and best runner up out of the 2 larger groups qualifying for a one legged semi at a neutral venue. Semis and final to be played in 7 days. All knockout matches to be decided on night. The league cup could be run off in a month.

From April - July/Aug League championship could be run off. This would set teams competing in Europe up as is currently.

Aug - Nov. Reorganised Setanta Cup. 12 eL Premier div teams and 16 Northern teams makes 4 groups of 7. Home and away matches gives all teams a guarenteed 12 games in the competition. Top 2 in each group would qualify for knockout rounds.

The FAI cup can be run off throughout the season (1 round a month?) or at the end of the season.
The 1st division would remain as is I'm afraid! Promotion and relegation wouldn't need to be changed. Bottom club replaced by 1st division winners and playoff between 2nd last and runners up. Same format to decide European places.
This season seemed a bit of a joke. A shortened league might make a difference to the smaller clubs. As it is, the same teams will challenge for the league regardless of its length, whereas the clubs who fall into that purgitory area would have other options, and wouldn't necessarily lose players as easily in the summer transfer window.

COuld it work? Anybody care to discuss.

[Kingdom]

I agree with the idea of the clubs having distribution of the international tickets. But not the idea of the Junior/Intermediate clubs. The only way I can think of backing my feeling is that with a LoI club you can come and go if you please (relatively speaking) whereas with a non- LoI club commitment constantly is needed. The most I could commit to a Junior club would be playing one match every 3 weeks. What would a club say to that? Get yer bike son.

[gspain]

Despite the win over the all Blacks very few people in Munster rugby would hav eidentified themselves with Munster even 10 years ago. It was very much club and Ireland. In the early 90's AIL games were drawing huge crowds and the Interpros were attreacting a fraction of those crowds. The IRFU have really done an incredible job and hats off to them. It has damaged club rugby but by and large has been great for their game.

Now is there a lesson for football. I don't think the F.A.I. would even be allowed to own/operate a few teams. Where I think the real lesson is that there is a huge market there if you can get a successful brand. Football has a huge advantage over rugby in that it is still the main sport in the country. More people play football than gaelic and rugby combined. Unfortunately they don't go to watch football here. They watch the premiership on tv or travel in huge numbers to games. So a successful domestic football club/team has massive potential. However I think that success has to be defined in European terms and it means competing in the champions league.

[Passive]

GmcD ... said hoolies were the biggest deterrent and the biggest obstacle.

My God. Talk about taking the queen's shilling.

Irish football is in chaos from top to bottom and it defies belief that FAI think the biggest problem is a few dozen 15 year olds throwing shapes.

[sonofstan]

My God. Talk about taking the queen's shilling.

Irish football is in chaos from top to bottom and it defies belief that FAI think the biggest problem is a few dozen 15 year olds throwing shapes.

Thinking about it more, the whole slant of Gerry McDermott's presentation was kind of odd. I really don't buy the idea that there are loads of middle class dads just dying to take Ronan and Conor to an EL match but being deterred by a few headlines in the Herald; nor do i think the office party/ corporate bonding sector so ably targeted by Bord na gCon is going to be enticed along to Richmond or even the New Dalymount. John Byrne was much closer to the mark with his slowly, slowly piecemeal approach. There are already 100,000's of people in this country interested and involved in Football, either as players or members at junior and intermediate level, or as fans of teams outside the country*. We just need to convince those people who already know what football is like and probably understand that occasional rude words are shouted at opposition players or at the ref, to come along to league matches with the novel idea that the football might be quite good and that there is, sometimes at least, quite an enjoyable fan culture attached.


* somebody from the floor made a fairly useful point about the snobbery of the EL fan towards the supposed 'barstooler'. I think we should recognise that for all the plastic chelsea and Celtic fans about the place, there are also lots of genuinely knowledgeable and committed fans of even non- premiership English teams, who may have quite strong reasons for supporting those teams - whether through their own emigrant experience or that of their parents or other family.

[endabob1]

"the whole slant of Gerry McDermott's presentation was kind of odd. I really don't buy the idea that there are loads of middle class dads just dying to take Ronan and Conor to an EL match but being deterred by a few headlines in the Herald;"

I agree the problem is deeper, I think your average middle class dad needs to be made aware about the existance of their local LOI club before they would even consider taking their kids to it. That can only be done by media exposure and improved facilities. That can only come about through the FAI pulling their finger out and getting proper coverage on state Television and investment in clubs, where this comes from is the really big question.....

[NY Hoop]

My God. Talk about taking the queen's shilling.

Irish football is in chaos from top to bottom and it defies belief that FAI think the biggest problem is a few dozen 15 year olds throwing shapes.

Spot on. McDermott has been a cheerleader for the FAI even before he was employed by them. If he thinks the FAI are "rescuing football" he needs a brain transplant. I know from personal experience these people will never admit to their mistakes. How can they make the league better if they think everything they are doing is superb? This season, yet again, has been a fiasco and yet he's worried about a very very small minority of kids going to games as being the deterrent

This kind of **** from clowns like that makes me glad I didnt go.

KOH

[BohDiddley]

Thought it was a good debate, well-reported above.
For one thing, no one was going around calling anyone else a clown, at least not out loud.
I think the hooliganism thing was overcooked, but that was just the way that segment of the discussion went. Both John Byrne (who was superb) and Gerry Conway acknowledged that there was a problem and GC said Bohs were going to significantly up the security budget.
I was delighted to see the lack of public funding, and the disgraceful imbalance of subvention (€112m?) for dogs v the pittance football, highlighted by Conway.
I'd be more optimistic of the turnout, and put it at 80. But I would say that.

[WeAreRovers]

So McDermott has swallowed the Delaney blueprint whole? I hope it doesn't choke him. The greyhound analogy is nonsense of the highest order. What we do is called supporting your team and what fans in the successful leagues around Europe do is exactly the same thing.

Who the fcuk pops down to Harolds Cross on a Tuesday night with their season ticket, scarf around the neck and cheers on a particular greyhound? Nobody, that's who. Greyhound racing is a all about a night out and a wee flutter. It couldn't be more different than football.

As for McDermott's hoolie jibe, that's beneath contempt. it reminds me of the words of a former Rovers director who said "we don't need you lot, we'll get new fans in Tallaght" Maybe McDermott and his floppy-haired boss could have a word with that particular chap. They'll find him on the list of discredited football club directors.

KOH

[pete]

Who the fcuk pops down to Harolds Cross on a Tuesday night with their season ticket, scarf around the neck and cheers on a particular greyhound? Nobody, that's who. Greyhound racing is a all about a night out and a wee flutter. It couldn't be more different than football.

Greyhound tracks are basically state built pubs. Vast majority of people who attend go for food, beer & gambling & never go outside. Would even 20% of people from average attendance be there for the racing first?

[OneRedArmy]

Spot on. McDermott has been a cheerleader for the FAI even before he was employed by them. If he thinks the FAI are "rescuing football" he needs a brain transplant. I know from personal experience these people will never admit to their mistakes. How can they make the league better if they think everything they are doing is superb? This season, yet again, has been a fiasco and yet he's worried about a very very small minority of kids going to games as being the deterrent

This kind of **** from clowns like that makes me glad I didnt go.

KOH

Blaming "hooliganism" is just the FAI's way of lining up their excuses early for failing to achieve their goal of developing domestic soccer. They have neated picked the one element (regardless of whether it exists or doesn't, and I think we all know we have less of a hoolie problem than almost any other Euro nation) that is outside their control.

Shameful diversionary tactics from GMcD that any 5 year old can see through.

In addition to all of its other failings the FAI has an unrivalled ability to display a Teflon-like exterior to each and every bit of criticism thrown its way and generally behave in an infallible manner.

[garyderry]

Blaming "hooliganism" is just the FAI's way of lining up their excuses early for failing to achieve their goal of developing domestic soccer. They have neated picked the one element (regardless of whether it exists or doesn't, and I think we all know we have less of a hoolie problem than almost any other Euro nation) that is outside their control.

Shameful diversionary tactics from GMcD that any 5 year old can see through.

In addition to all of its other failings the FAI has an unrivalled ability to display a Teflon-like exterior to each and every bit of criticism thrown its way and generally behave in an infallible manner.

But its a fact that "hooliganism" is a problem, and does drive people from games FACT, and will prevent many from attending games, whether you all want to believe it or not.

I have no problem what so ever taking the kids to the brandywell, i certainly would not have them anywhere near a bohs V shels, rovers v bohs game, and i know for a fact people have gone to games here in dublin involing shels and wont be back for that reason.

So if this is a factor for a die hard EL fan, and for some who have gone along a tried a few games, how on earth are the FAI wrong in there analysis that it isnt a factor for attracting those outside the EL.

Sticking your collective heads in the sand and saying the FAI are using it as an excuse does not mean McDermott and the FAI are not right, they are 100% right,

[WeAreRovers]

But its a fact that "hooliganism" is a problem, and does drive people from games FACT, and will prevent many from attending games, whether you all want to believe it or not.

I have no problem what so ever taking the kids to the brandywell, i certainly would not have them anywhere near a bohs V shels, rovers v bohs game, and i know for a fact people have gone to games here in dublin involing shels and wont be back for that reason.

So if this is a factor for a die hard EL fan, and for some who have gone along a tried a few games, how on earth are the FAI wrong in there analysis that it isnt a factor for attracting those outside the EL.

Sticking your collective heads in the sand and saying the FAI are using it as an excuse does not mean McDermott and the FAI are not right, they are 100% right,

Putting FACT at the end of an opinion doesn't change the fact that it's still just an opinion. We do not have a hooligan problem in this country. Stick Feyenoord or PSG into Google to see what a hoolie problem is.

What we do have in this country is a media dying to paint domestic football in a bad light and yes, gobdaws invading pitches and throwing stuff on to the pitch need to be stopped. But for the FAI to pick up the media's hoolie baton and run with it is yet more lame straw-clutching from the 'guardians of our game'.

England still has a huge hooligan problem but over there the media are onside with the glitz and glamour of the Premier League and are complicit in talking down the problems, much like our media with their friends in Croke Park.

Please don't allow the FAI to get away with this shameless spin. It's just another excuse for them.

KOH

[wws]

I hope McDermott has been quoted out of context and meant that we should, as an association, learn from greyhound racing in the way they have successfully drawn down vast chunks of public money for the risible public service of encouraging drinking and gambling.

If we can get a similar infrastructural boost that would be great but as has been pointed out above I hope he's not implying that we turn football into a night out at the dogs, which is just stupidity of the highest order.

[bigmac]

England still has a huge hooligan problem but over there the media are onside with the glitz and glamour of the Premier League and are complicit in talking down the problems, much like our media with their friends in Croke Park.

I have to agree with this. Although I have seen disgraceful behaviour at EL games in the past, and probably will do in the future, I lifted a few points out of the Indo the other day about the GAA. I would invite people to consider the media coverage were any of the following to happen at a match involving Shamrock Rovers.

(1) September:
At the Laois SHC quarter-final between Camross and Castletown, players and supporters became involved in a prolonged bout of fighting with fists and boots. Heavy punishments follow and the Leinster Council advises feuding Laois clubs to enter mediation.

(2) October:
Gardaí accompany referee Michael Conway off the field after a tempestuous Galway SHC final where Loughrea shock All-Ireland club champions Portumna. Coach of Portumna, Seán Treacy, claims "the day of the sledger who can do what he likes is back." Yet, it is both Treacy and the Portumna manager Jimmy Heverin who get eight-week bans for 'bringing discredit upon the Association' with their comments.

(3) October:
A free-for-all that started on the sideline and involves players, spectators and officials erupts during the Ballylinan-Glenmore v Heath Gaels in the Laois U21 FC.

(4) October:
Ref Pat Fox receives at least two blows from a player and a mentor at the end of the Leinster club football clash between Palatine (Carlow) and Rhode (Offaly) at Dr Cullen Park. Leinster Council subsequently apply stiff punishments, expelling one Palatine club member from the Association.

(5) November:
A special investigation is launched by the Wicklow County Board into the violence at the recent St Patrick's v Glenealy IHC semi-final replay. Most of the violence is understood to have taken place after the match in an adjoining car park.

(6) November:
Two Clontibret players are rushed to hospital following a major outburst of fighting at the drawn Ulster club SFC clash with Cargin. The game is held up for nine minutes after heated exchanges break out in the 54th minute.

(7) November:
Fists fly indiscriminately as players and mentors clash during a vicious brawl that erupts as Stewartstown (Tyrone) and Ballymacnab (Armagh) leave the pitch after their drawn Ulster IFC semi-final in Casement Park.

(8) November:
A referee is forced to abandon a Carlow MFL final between the Eire Óg and Mount Leinster Rangers with nine minutes remaining after a free-for-all. Club officials fail in their efforts to separate players during the protracted melee.

(9) November:
After the final whistle is blown in the South Kerry minor final, the referee is set upon by angry 'supporters' from losing club Skellig Rangers and one individual gives the official a Kung Fu kick in the stomach.

(10) November:
An investigation is launched in Galway after a junior league match, between Tuam and St Kerrill's, is abandoned after 15 minutes when a series of fights broke out. Despite two dismissals, the violence continues and, after another melee, the referee calls a premature halt to proceedings.

All in the space of 2 months or so, and surrounding a furore about the poor wee Irish lads being beaten up by their big professional Australian counterparts.