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Thread: LOI Club History Discussion

  1. #21
    No-mark has-been stann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Partizan View Post
    Isn't the current DUFC (1975) an amalgamation of two clubs, Drogheda FC (1962) and a non league Drogheda United (1919)?
    Quote Originally Posted by Straightstory View Post
    Very DEFINITELY, Drogheda became Drogheda United in 1975.
    Correct, Drogheda FC formed in 1962, and joined the League for the 1963/64 season (along with a returning Sligo Rovers as the league expanded to 12 teams again having reduced to 10 the previous season. Good job messing like that is a thing of the past...)
    They amalgamated with the older, non-league, Drogheda United ahead of the 1975/76 season.

    Just looking back through some random old newspaper reports, it was definitely Drogheda FC that beat us in October 1970 for the first time in four years, and again in January 1973 it was Drogheda FC we beat on the way to that last title.
    Any mention of Drogheda United pre-1975, in newspapers or programmes, most likely is just confusion between the two names, or (in the papers) actually refers to the non-league outfit. They were active in the AUL which would have been covered quite a bit in papers like the Herald, at least.
    Last edited by stann; 09/02/2017 at 8:03 AM. Reason: rootage
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  2. #22
    First Team Partizan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stann View Post
    Correct, Drogheda FC formed in 1962, and joined the League for the 1963/64 season (along with a returning Sligo Rovers as the league expanded to 12 teams again having reduced to 10 the previous season. Good job messing like that is a thing of the past...)
    They amalgamated with the older, non-league, Drogheda United ahead of the 1975/76 season.

    Just looking back through some random old newspaper reports, it was definitely Drogheda FC that beat us in October 1970 for the first time in four years, and again in January 1973 it was Drogheda FC we beat on the way to that last title.
    Any mention of Drogheda United pre-1975, in newspapers or programmes, most likely is just confusion between the two names, or (in the papers) actually refers to the non-league outfit. They were active in the AUL which would have been covered quite a bit in papers like the Herald, at least.
    So the current DUFC came about in 1975, not 1919 as incorrectly stated?

    UC Sampdoria, who ply their trade in Serie A is another example. They are an amalgamation of two clubs, Ginnastica Sampierdarenese (1891) and Andrea Doria (1895). They merged in 1946 to give us the club that we have today. Therefore UC Sampdoria is just 71 years young, not 126 or 122. So DUFC (1975) are only 42 years in existence, not 98 years that is often erroneously given.

    Btw, are there any other cases of this in the League at present, or is DUFC (1975), a unique case?

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    Bray are an amalgamation as well, aren't they?
    Celebrating 130 Years of Athlone Town Football Club - Pride of the Midlands Since 1887

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    First Team seand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Partizan View Post
    So the current DUFC came about in 1975, not 1919 as incorrectly stated?

    UC Sampdoria, who ply their trade in Serie A is another example. They are an amalgamation of two clubs, Ginnastica Sampierdarenese (1891) and Andrea Doria (1895). They merged in 1946 to give us the club that we have today. Therefore UC Sampdoria is just 71 years young, not 126 or 122. So DUFC (1975) are only 42 years in existence, not 98 years that is often erroneously given.

    Btw, are there any other cases of this in the League at present, or is DUFC (1975), a unique case?
    Interesting that.... I'd suggest the Drogheda FC formed in 1962 was the senior partner in the merger in 1975, but Drogheda United FC does indeed go back to 1919, so I wouldn't quibble their claim to go back to 1919. And it looks like there was some confusion in the papers prior to 1975, with Drogheda FC being confused with Drogheda United.

    It was in 2015 I think that UCD re-christened us Dundalk United. I think we played at the Bowl the week after Drogheda and somebody was in a bit of hurry when updating the programme before printing! Not that unusual to see the wrong squad/crest/away team name in programmes in fairness.

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    International Prospect Martinho II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atfconline View Post
    Bray are an amalgamation as well, aren't they?
    I dont think so. Bray have had so many clubs over the years. There was the original Bray Wanderers in the 50s that played with us in the LSL till they disbanded. then there was Bray Unknowns. Thats my gist on it ATFC. The Bray lads would be able to give you a more accurate answer on it!
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    Seasoned Pro El-Pietro's Avatar
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    That's interesting. Similar to the situation with Germany, and East/West Germany. Germany claim 4 World Cups, but 3 of those were won by West Germany. Do Germany just claim history from West Germany, or both teams in modern history.

    From a certain point of view you could argue that the histories of both clubs both attribute to the modern day side, so even if the current name was adopted in 1975, the club is much older.

    Waterford didn't form in 2017, they were founded in either 1930 or 82 depending on who you talk to, changing their name didn't create a new club. I don't think its clear cut either way with Drogheda.

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    First Team seand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El-Pietro View Post
    That's interesting. Similar to the situation with Germany, and East/West Germany. Germany claim 4 World Cups, but 3 of those were won by West Germany. Do Germany just claim history from West Germany, or both teams in modern history.

    From a certain point of view you could argue that the histories of both clubs both attribute to the modern day side, so even if the current name was adopted in 1975, the club is much older.

    Waterford didn't form in 2017, they were founded in either 1930 or 82 depending on who you talk to, changing their name didn't create a new club. I don't think its clear cut either way with Drogheda.
    Waterford went bust and were reformed in 1945 too! They were Waterford FC (1945) Ltd for a while.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/540784...7629315881185/

    But then most clubs have reformed at some stage over the years.

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  9. #28
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El-Pietro View Post
    That's interesting. Similar to the situation with Germany, and East/West Germany. Germany claim 4 World Cups, but 3 of those were won by West Germany. Do Germany just claim history from West Germany, or both teams in modern history.
    I think the view is East Germany merged into West Germany, and so West Germany just changed name.

    Like how Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine, etc, all broke away from the USSR, leaving Russia on its own to claim the USSR's record. And ditto with Serbia in Yugoslavia.

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  11. #29
    No-mark has-been stann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Partizan View Post
    So the current DUFC came about in 1975, not 1919 as incorrectly stated?
    Not for me to say whether it's incorrect or not.
    I'd think of it in terms of the length of a river. Seems reasonable you'd follow the river itself back to source to measure that. But what if it had a tributary that was longer again, could that not be considered the real distance? The one thing you wouldn't do is measure back just to where they merged, that way madness lies.
    Don't know how Drogs fans feel about it, but I'd go with either 1962 (the source) or 1919 (the longer tributary), but not 1975.
    Last edited by stann; 10/02/2017 at 8:10 AM. Reason: caning the tortuous riverine analogy!
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  13. #30
    No-mark has-been stann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El-Pietro View Post
    Waterford didn't form in 2017, they were founded in either 1930 or 82 depending on who you talk to, changing their name didn't create a new club. I don't think its clear cut either way with Drogheda.
    I think there's no valid reason not to push the formation year back to 1927, as it goes. Waterford Celtic were formed in that year, and played three seasons in the Munster Senior League before applying, and being accepted, to the Free State League under the same name. They only changed it to Waterford AFC just before the 1930/31 season kicked off, and were still referred to as Celtic in many newspaper reports for months afterwards.

    The 1940s hiatus is interesting. Unlike the earlier gap from 1932-34, the club had dropped out of senior football altogether for four seasons, but when they returned to the League of Ireland it was with some of the same players, staff and directors, and it was not seen in the national press as anything other than a return of the old club.
    A report from June 1945 in the local paper did talk of a "meeting of shareholders of the newly-formed Waterford Association Football Club," which presumably is where Waterford AFC (1945) comes about, but the very next paragraph begins: "The sub-committee submitted a report of their work in connection with the club's re-admission to the league," and there is further mention of a successful "request for re-admission to the League of Ireland."
    So it seems, despite a new legal (or business) entity being formed, that in the view of the national press (local press a little more ambiguously), and more importantly the League itself, it was a continuation of the old club.

    A general meeting in September 1982 saw a vote to disband the board of Waterford FC (1945) and form a new group under Waterford United FC (1982), with the club rebranded and re-badged as a result. Some indeed see this as a new entity, but certainly on the playing front the change-over here was seamless from one season to the next, way more so than in 1945 (six of the team that played the last league game of 1981/82 featured in the first one of 1982/83, for example).
    Last edited by stann; 10/02/2017 at 8:19 AM. Reason: statto
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  15. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by stann View Post
    I think there's no valid reason not to push the formation year back to 1927, as it goes. Waterford Celtic were formed in that year, and played three seasons in the Munster Senior League before applying, and being accepted, to the Free State League under the same name. They only changed it to Waterford AFC just before the 1930/31 season kicked off, and were still referred to as Celtic in many newspaper reports for months afterwards.

    The 1940s hiatus is interesting. Unlike the earlier gap from 1932-34, the club had dropped out of senior football altogether for four seasons, but when they returned to the League of Ireland it was with some of the same players, staff and directors, and it was not seen in the national press as anything other than a return of the old club.
    A report from June 1945 in the local paper did talk of a "meeting of shareholders of the newly-formed Waterford Association Football Club," which presumably is where Waterford AFC (1945) comes about, but the very next paragraph begins: "The sub-committee submitted a report of their work in connection with the club's re-admission to the league," and there is further mention of a successful "request for re-admission to the League of Ireland."
    So it seems, despite a new legal (or business) entity being formed, that in the view of the national press (local press a little more ambiguously), and more importantly the League itself, it was a continuation of the old club.

    A general meeting in September 1982 saw a vote to disband the board of Waterford FC (1945) and form a new group under Waterford United FC (1982), with the club rebranded and re-badged as a result. Some indeed see this as a new entity, but certainly on the playing front the change-over here was seamless from one season to the next, way more so than in 1945 (six of the team that played the last league game of 1981/82 featured in the first one of 1982/83, for example).
    That's a great bit of research.

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  17. #32
    Apprentice gspain01's Avatar
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    My understanding has been that Waterford dropped out in 1941 in a row over player bonuses. The club reached the FAI Cup Final losing to Cork United after a replay and finished level on points with United thus ensuring a playoff for the title that never took place due to the row.

    Legend has it Limerick bought the blue Waterford jerseys and switched colours to blue/white from red and white stripes from the 1942/43 season. I've never been able to verify it but heard talk of it as a very young boy on the popularside in the early 1970's when many of those claiming it would have been going in the early 1940's. We certainly started playing in blue & white from 1942/43 and have almost ever since (apart from the seasons in Pat Grace's horse racing colours).

    Waterford Celtic actually were playing years afterwards. They lost the 1938 Munster Junior Cup Final to Glasheen - http://www.munsterfa.com/previouswinners.html

    I tend to view these changes as the same club. Rules were lax in previous years and it was easy enough to liquidate a club and a new club take their place in the league.

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  19. #33
    First Team seand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gspain01 View Post

    I tend to view these changes as the same club. Rules were lax in previous years and it was easy enough to liquidate a club and a new club take their place in the league.
    Spoken like a true Limerick FC/United/City/37/FC fan ;-)

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  21. #34
    No-mark has-been stann's Avatar
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    There were a couple of separate things going on in 1941, I think.
    Working from memory here, but IIRC the reason they handed the league to Cork uncontested was that the players wanted a draw bonus in place as well as the win bonus for that test match to decide the league, as it was beyond the period of their paid contracts. The directors refused in high dudgeon, and seven players struck, so the club couldn't field a team, and after a period of deliberation the title was awarded to Cork United.
    Meantime, and maybe not unconnected, the club was losing money hand over fist all season long, and they pulled out of the following year's competition simply because the costs were going to be too high, especially transport (presumably due to petrol rationing), and the directors weren't prepared to bear the burden any further.
    There was definitely an element of sulk on both sides though, both in the club pulling out and the way the rogue players were treated by the League afterwards.

    The first year Waterford Celtic joined the League of Ireland, they also continued with a team in the local Waterford City League as well. I have a few sketchy details of games against New Ross and Kilkenny for example, and presumably this was their reserves or a B side of some kind. When Waterford FC pulled out of the League after two seasons, they played one season in the MSL, then pulled out of that too to go back to junior league for a season. I'd guess they kind of took over Celtic's place at that point, or at least the two teams combined, but on re-entering the League the following year Celtic were again free to plough their own furrow at the lower level for several seasons after that.

    I heard the shirt story before alright, must look into that bit more if possible, I love stories like that. They mightn't have had the hashtags back then but it's always been the BestLeagueInTheWorld.
    Last edited by stann; 10/02/2017 at 5:02 PM.
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    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seand View Post
    Waterford went bust and were reformed in 1945 too! They were Waterford FC (1945) Ltd for a while.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/540784...7629315881185/
    Every club in the league has gone bust and reformed bar Cabinteely. Wexford had the honour up until this year.

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    Not Entirely Sure nigel-harps1954's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    Every club in the league has gone bust and reformed bar Cabinteely. Wexford had the honour up until this year.
    Hold on there a minute...

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    Seasoned Pro outspoken's Avatar
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    We never went bust

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  26. #38
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    Or us.

  27. #39
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Standard UCD mention

  28. #40
    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Lads, every club has gone bust. It used to be a lot easier to ditch a holding company and set up a new one than it is now, but every club has done. Some several times.

    edit: UCD an exception for obvious reasons

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