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Thread: PCA League Proposal

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    I think Crumlin beat them this year, no?

    I don't think there's any point worrying about promoted clubs being competitive with Dundalk tbh.
    And Douglas Hall beat limerick in the Munster Senior Cup final too actually, and they wouldnt be in the top 3 munster senior league sides

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    There's plenty of non-league sides capable of holding their own in the First Division. In one-off games they've shown they're capable of showing up plenty of LOI teams in cup games, Crumlin and Avondale two mentioned to have beaten or drawn with Harps being good examples yeah.

    There's no point at all in worrying about how promoted clubs would do against Dundalk, and that's exactly the point I was trying to make.

    Worrying about how clubs would do on the field with their current squads is nonsense. Looking at extending the league wherever possible should be high up on the list of priorities for the FAI but that requires too much effort.

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    First Team Nesta99's Avatar
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    It doesnt have to be over complicated with league structuring, align the seasons, teams from the senior provincial leagues can be promoted if they wish and meet (or are helped meet whatever criteria). If no one is interested in promotion then the relegated team does a Bray and escapes the trap door. Aligning the seasons, among other things sorts out issues with cup comp scheduling and competativeness for sides out of season and also simply make practical sense. Junior sides could try a break away but should then be outside the FAI fold then. Some continuity is created and the likes of LSL/MSL sides might lose some of their rather odd contempt for the highest level of the game here. What was said above about the underage reform and the old structures and ridiculous agreements that LoI sides had, not to develop underage structures, being gone and forgotten is spot on and the same would happen with other levels of the game. The rolled out regular whining about summer holidays for players, travel expenses for clubs et al are not insurmountable obstacles either in the bigger picture.

    The PCA document is far more extensive than getting bogged down in some of the specifics. If there is some way to incentivise financial investment from the FAI to get them to truly commit to the league tiers is the big ask. Maybe at the extreme end of things that the FAI in some way benefit from transfer fees in, or European progression - indicators of development/progress of the league in themselves - i dunno what really could be suggested here but something that the FAI may see return on is what I think will only properly get them on board - they need a vested interest in the leagues improvement beyond 'x' number of players in the senior international squad that are ex LoI. Overall this PCA document has the potential if properly engaged with to bring about at least meaningful discussion, not the BS external review of recent.

    Maybe membership fees should be ringfenced in some way for the league( or 1st division) and obviously the whole issue of league sponsorship and whether the FAI plug gaps in their finances by using league income need transparency. The whole trust issue and finding/identifying the mutually beneficial aspects of the relationship between league and governing body have to be resolved before the real grit reform or FAI support happens. The FAI already know quantifiable benefits the league may provide but without league clubs knowing if or whether this is the case progress will be piecemeal, snail paced and frustrating as ever. For the first time the majority of clubs are not entirely self-serving on making changes, at least thats what it seems to me where previously the clubs were so divided the FAI had it easy. My tuppence worth anyways.
    Last edited by Nesta99; 05/01/2017 at 10:52 PM.

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  5. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    . If there is some way to incentivise financial investment from the FAI to get them to truly commit to the league tiers is the big ask. Maybe at the extreme end of things that the FAI in some way benefit from transfer fees in, or European progression - indicators of development/progress of the league in themselves - i dunno what really could be suggested here but something that the FAI may see return on is what I think will only properly get them on board - they need a vested interest in the leagues improvement beyond 'x' number of players in the senior international squad that are ex LoI.
    I understand where you're coming from here, but can't agree. It's the FAI's job and remit to help nourish and deliver a healthy senior league in Ireland. They shouldn't need a direct incentive to do this, and they don't exactly have a very broad range of responsibilities so you'd think they could make a half-decent stab at this important aspect of their remit.

    Sure why not incentivise the government to have better results being achieved at schools whilst we're at it.

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    I agree that it shouldnt be necessary but it is what it is and if something properly piques the interest of the governing body in what seems to motivate them most ie their bank balance then in the early stages in the building of some proper rapport then maybe? I am not advocating such a system really just considering what might be needed is to properly develop a symbiotic or equal link of importance between the 2 largest single entities in the senior domestic game. Didnt the government consider a graduate tax for a while or was that in the UK, it would have been vaugely an incentivisation for better results in an education system that is struggling financially and with infrastructure (UK or Ireland). I get the example but the example fits a potential model for a quid pro quo relationship until such a time that mutual beneficiaries of investment are evident directly to each and is the norm.

    There was an article on RTE.IE about underage football a while back and many of the comments below were bemoaning the death knell of schoolboy football in Ireland with the introduction of the U15 league (and will probably become >U15 if even through an elite player programs of sorts). It was depressing to read comments on how LoI clubs know nothing about the development youth players. To me pitching the best of youth talent across a LoI system will benefit young players a lot more than lads that are superstars in their own local league and are not challanged by players of similar ability regularly. The introduction of the U15 - U19 leagues does indicate a change in mindset at the FAI where underage clubs seemed to have a had veto on these things in the past. This type of change needs to continue and pervade the thinking at all levels of football below LoI. It will take a generation of players to see any benefits of changes and new underage structures so it is a long term thing as we all know in the mean time the short sighted and short term focus on lower and lower English divisions players will continue as the backbone of the international team imo until the FAI have some carrot dangled in front and they accept the domestic league as essential to the international teams long term success. I am sure we would all like to feel that the FAI is not run in a vested interest way, maybe the league too. I cant see that happening until Irish players are totally limited in game time in a country like England that is alredy limited in the way that they think and coach football. European or other development systems may not suit us with how we want the RoI to play especially when the players we do have being developed are in the Coyle, Pulis ways where if an Irish player miraculously had the potential of a Messi, Silva, Iniesta, they could be overlooked. Ach this is a ridiculous ramble that is stating the sort of stiff that many LoI fans would suggest. All Irish football is caught up in the here and now results including the FAI so maybe I am thinking this short term cycle could be lifted a bit with LoI clubs coming up with some way that the FAI may invest additional money at least initially with the expectation of return that isnt all on the field until such a time that players are better after domestic development than exported for development at Swindon of the like. Saturate the place with coaches with badges up to youth cert free for 3 years across all levels with a wait and see approach. Jaysus I am talking ****e!!!
    Last edited by Nesta99; 06/01/2017 at 6:34 AM.

  7. #86
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    Those non-league clubs might have decent first teams and do OK in one off games- but do their players have the commitment to step up to senior level with the travel and extra training? Do the clubs have the admin capacity for licensing and running 4 teams in national leagues? How would some of them cope with the closer scrutiny that senior football would bring on their financial arrangements? (plenty of non senior clubs paying players and I would be sceptical as to the tax / PRSI arrangements are fully or even remotely legit). Being in senior football is tough- Mervue United and Salthill Devon are strong clubs who could not sustain it.

    In a way this is the central issue- being in the LOI is so damn difficult we can't get clubs to do it, at least for long unless they're relatively well established already or have serious determination and drive like Wexford have shown. And yet the LOI is vital to Irish football in terms of producing international players- and the National team pays for everything. So we need the FAI to step up and help make being in the league sustainable, not producing report after report that urge the already stretched clubs to do more with less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr A
    And yet the LOI is vital to Irish football in terms of producing international players- and the National team pays for everything. So we need the FAI to step up and help make being in the league sustainable, not producing report after report that urge the already stretched clubs to do more with less.
    This is key alright. Which I guess ties in with the report suggesting a huge increase in prize money, for all teams, and ultimately for the benefit of the FAI and the national team.

    I think the underage league structure is a good idea - but if it costs clubs twenty grand per team and the FAI are only giving travel grants of 500 quid, then the u15s will actually hurt the LoI - the money has to come from somewhere. The FAI's view seems to put the responsibility for raising more funds entirely on the clubs - but they should want clubs to improve, and shouldn't be scoffing at theidea of funding clubs.

    Look at the comparison to Iceland, where the national FA pays for referees for example.

  9. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    This is key alright. Which I guess ties in with the report suggesting a huge increase in prize money, for all teams, and ultimately for the benefit of the FAI and the national team.

    I think the underage league structure is a good idea - but if it costs clubs twenty grand per team and the FAI are only giving travel grants of 500 quid, then the u15s will actually hurt the LoI - the money has to come from somewhere. The FAI's view seems to put the responsibility for raising more funds entirely on the clubs - but they should want clubs to improve, and shouldn't be scoffing at theidea of funding clubs.

    Look at the comparison to Iceland, where the national FA pays for referees for example.
    Surely the simple answer is for the FAI to greatly increase the prize money available for every place in the league ?

    That's the equivalent of funding clubs, paying for refs etc etc without the unseemliness of actually doing so. It's in-line with the competitive ethos of a league, in that those who perform better get more. And it would make the step up into senior football less financially precarious for new entrants.

    I may well be being too simplistic here, but it seems to me that this single move by the FAI would do a lot to help tackle various challenges the LOI faces.

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    That's what the report suggests though.

    Plus other things besides.

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    Interview with cobh manager Henderson on newspaper this morning and I think he is absolutely spot on saying only one team going up which will be Waterford and with no playoffs will put the other teams out of business nothing to play for 1/4 of the way through the season be lucky to get 100 people in the gate.
    If Waterford do what limerick did last season and get out of sight very quickly what's the point of other teams even togging out nothing to play for.
    Maybe Longford might stay with them for a while but you'd expect Waterford to pull away at one stage.

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    It definitely is a concern. We probably have the one or two individuals with the necessary deep pockets to keep us afloat if it comes to it (and it must have last year since we don't appear to have had any other source of income) but it'd be a boring season and other clubs may not be so fortunate. I'll reserve judgment on just how strong Waterford will be until they take the field, any other year I'd be very confident of being in the play offs at the least.
    "He mightn't always be right but he's never wrong"

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    Players signing for Waterford are being sold the line that Premier football is assured for the following season. I hope it keeps fine for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldyouth View Post
    Players signing for Waterford are being sold the line that Premier football is assured for the following season. I hope it keeps fine for them.
    There is no way *any* manager would ever say that, and surely no player stupid enough to believe it even if it was said.

    It's entirely likely they're being told "we're going all out for promotion - look at the players we're signing - we stand a great chance" which is not quite the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thomas72 View Post
    Interview with cobh manager Henderson on newspaper this morning and I think he is absolutely spot on saying only one team going up which will be Waterford and with no playoffs will put the other teams out of business nothing to play for 1/4 of the way through the season be lucky to get 100 people in the gate.
    If Waterford do what limerick did last season and get out of sight very quickly what's the point of other teams even togging out nothing to play for.
    Maybe Longford might stay with them for a while but you'd expect Waterford to pull away at one stage.
    What is the answer? Can't keep 8 teams in the first div & no clubs will to join.

    If FAI were having 1 league in 2018 clubs would have nothing to play for as next season & would struggle to attract people to games as there is nothing to play for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thomas72 View Post
    Interview with cobh manager Henderson on newspaper this morning and I think he is absolutely spot on saying only one team going up which will be Waterford and with no playoffs will put the other teams out of business nothing to play for 1/4 of the way through the season be lucky to get 100 people in the gate.
    If Waterford do what limerick did last season and get out of sight very quickly what's the point of other teams even togging out nothing to play for.
    Maybe Longford might stay with them for a while but you'd expect Waterford to pull away at one stage.
    I don't think Waterford will dominate to the extent that Limerick did last year, and I sense Longford, Cobh and UCD in particular will have something to say about this supposed stroll to the title, but irrespective, promoting only one team is a potentially disatrous idea. I'm baffled why the playoff structure wasn't retained. They could still do three down/one up *and* incorporate playoffs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    Surely the simple answer is for the FAI to greatly increase the prize money available for every place in the league ?

    That's the equivalent of funding clubs, paying for refs etc etc without the unseemliness of actually doing so. It's in-line with the competitive ethos of a league, in that those who perform better get more. And it would make the step up into senior football less financially precarious for new entrants.

    I may well be being too simplistic here, but it seems to me that this single move by the FAI would do a lot to help tackle various challenges the LOI faces.
    The danger with increasing the prize money is a lot of clubs don't have long term plans & tend to season to season.

    e.g. if league winners were to get a million, 2nd 750k 3rd 500k. etc We could have 4-5 clubs spending 500k plus meaning most clubs would be still making a loss . If clubs have more money it means that the PFAI will ensure players get paid more money so if a player get 500 today he might get 1000 next season as clubs will have more money so the clubs & league are not better off.

    New invesment should be on stadiums, youth set ups etc as clubs will benefit from these long term.

  18. #97
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trainee View Post
    New invesment should be on stadiums, youth set ups etc as clubs will benefit from these long term.
    The report covers that to an extent - obligatory minimum spend on ground improvements, and also continuous debt reduction. (Hard to rack up big losses while reducing debt)

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    Anybody hear how the Pca meeting went last night.?
    It was reported in the papers last week it was supposed to happen ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    Anybody hear how the Pca meeting went last night.?
    It was reported in the papers last week it was supposed to happen ?
    It did happen. From what I was told, it lasted around 3 and a half hours and there was little productive about it.

  21. #100
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    Small bit in Sun about it. https://www.thesun.ie/sport/football...of-the-league/

    'Crunch' meeting with FAI next Monday.

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