Where are we going wrong in Europe ??

[redobit]

... or maybe European teams of just better.

[pineapple stu]

Well we know that!

Just for illustration, with €5m in prize money, you could give -

€600k to the LoI champions
€50k less for each place below that, except for 11th and 12th, who both get €100k
€200k for the First Division champions
€25k less for each place below that, except for 5th to 8th, who all get €100k

That wouldn't be a panacea, but I'd be fairly sure you'd see a fair few improvements in the league with that kind of money in it.

The FAI's spending in the past decade has gone up by €30m per annum - on what? Is it all regional coaching staff and Lansdowne Road expenses?

I don't think €5m a year is an unworkable chunk of the FAI's budget to give to the league.

[nigel-harps1954]

Considering the money the FAI take out of the league each season €5m shouldn't be anywhere out of question towards prize money.

[Ezeikial]

Considering the money the FAI take out of the league each season €5m shouldn't be anywhere out of question towards prize money.

Do they take out over €5m ?

[nigel-harps1954]

Do they take out over €5m ?

I didn't say they do.

[Ezeikial]

I didn't say they do.

Help me out - what amount of money should we consider, when we reflect on your comment?

Considering the money the FAI take out of the league each season

[nigel-harps1954]

Commonly known that the FAI almost take in the entire league prize money through affiliation fees and fines each year.

Take sponsorship on top of that, Airtricity alone must be a good chunk of money each year without taking in smaller sponsors of the league, FAI Cup and Irish Daily Mail, League Cup and EA Sports, TV money through RTÉ and FAI deal, you can be also sure Setanta don't show games without paying a few quid. That's only the tip of the iceberg.

The FAI, all in, must take around €2 million in income a year from the League of Ireland at minimum.

If my figure is in any way accurate, is it really out of the question that the FAI should put in a couple million prize money to their own national league, taking the €30 million annual spend they waste anyway on a consistently failing national side amongst other things?

[pineapple stu]

Don't the FAI waive some of their international TV money (a couple of mill?) so MNS/Soccer Republic can screen?

[Sheridan]

Don't the FAI waive some of their international TV money (a couple of mill?) so MNS/Soccer Republic can screen?

That was under the previous deal, though RTÉ always (falsely) denied it.

[Charlie Darwin]

Something is not adding up there El-P. Average attendances of around 4k at €15 a head is €60k a game with 17 home games would be over €1m already (I know it's probably not exactly 4k and there's kids etc to be taken into account). Surely you're not relying purely on attendances for your revenue.

(insert token dig at John Caulfield and the great marketing team here)

I'd say the average paid for a ticket is probably more like €11-12 when you factor in season tickets, children's tickets and OAPs. Plus I get the impression Cork count freebies in their attendances too, which would bump it down again. Still, you're looking at 700k+ for gates, so the €1 million is probably roughly right.

[nigel-harps1954]

The FAI made around €1,000 on cards alone in the First Division this weekend. 22 yellows and 6 red cards dished out among FOUR games. Disgraceful stuff.

[SalvadorSanchez]

There's loads of reasons why we're not doing as well in Europe as we might.. but the main ones are.
We're a semi-pro league that releases players from contracts in close season... we're losing players to poor lower league outfits
in the UK because they offer better contracts and security of employment
there's no decent prize money for the clubs so every penny has to be shaken out of sponsors/fans/fund raising, you quickly get into diminishing return here...
there isn't enough punters paying through the gates (this is related to stadia/facilities, the perception of the quality of the product, and the level of success of the particular club..)
the big name sponsors aren't as interested as they might be, look at AIG, Skoda, Avonmore, Kerry Group.. all putting big money into the GAA...
the underage scene is a complete joke by all accounts,
a few people have mentioned coaching and self belief on here.. I can't disagree..

You'd have to think that there needs to be a section created in the FAI to focus on developing the LOI, it needs a budget of at least €5-10million a year to improve underage structures/player development, coaching, fan facilities, marketing and provide prize money... it also needs to bring in other finance from Government, Sponsors, TV etc. and to help the clubs with their fund raising..
Success has many fathers but if you look at it there's several pieces of the puzzle that need to be addressed... there's a lot of work to be done to get this right... we need to roll up our sleeves... I see no reason why this league can't develop...
the thing is someone has to step up and take overall responsibility for developing the League... the depressing thing is we're actually failing by quite small margins... Dundalk were unlucky against BATE... we're not actually that far from a breakthrough...
if the Danes/Norwegians/Croats/Poles can get teams into the CL, I don't see why we can't work towards that...

[pineapple stu]

The FAI made around €1,000 on cards alone in the First Division this weekend. 22 yellows and 6 red cards dished out among FOUR games. Disgraceful stuff.

There were 9 yellows at the Bowl yesterday, and most of those were deserved.

I don't see why that's the FAI's fault.

[Spudulika]

Everything written so far has merit, from lack of prize money, conservative tactics, the part-time nature of clubs etc. Some of the numbers (for Bosnia for example) given in the link would be questionable, though the poster says as much. I can say for a fact. In 2004 Hajduk Split were on the verge of being ejected from the Poljud and training grounds and being wound up because of a total of 500,000e in debts - accumulated over 2 years. In actuality they should have been in profit, but money was being drained from the club left right and centre - example, the UEFA Cup match against a cracking Roma team was a complete sell-out, yet apparently only 300,000kn (just over 40k euros) in tickets were sold. The average ticket price was 150kn, what wasn't told was that the entire allocation for the northern curve (the ultras) was sold off at a premium and the cash given to local fixers and gangsters.

The club only survived, after being kayoed by Shels, from a dig out from the City of Split, which is normal. Clubs in Eastern Europe get bucks from their local/regional government and assorted business people. If FFP is applied Slovan would not be playing UCD, and Skonto would not have faced Pats. Such clubs are constantly on a cycle of running up big debts then walking away, starting a new club and pretending all is okay, and supporters back it (never happen in Ireland though!).

The BATE model is something any Irish club can do, but it needs a 5+ year plan and sticking to it, I don't see any of our clubs capable of this. It's all about ensuring that there is a good coaching structure in each club, that kids arrive at age 6 and each youth side plays the same formation and tactics the whole way up to the senior side and players are versatile. They began with not a whole lot of money but with ex-players returning and trust put in a decent coaching staff. Of course they could do more with less because of the cost of living, but now they're reaching the limits of their ability by making the knock-out round in the Europa League the odd time.

We can have an MLS model, a pyramid, an inverted pyramid or 15 divisions, but the simple fact is that our coaching is still short term and the goal of any decent player is to get to England or Scotland. The fault, largely, lies with money hungry unaffiliated schoolboy clubs and the backhanders paid to people involved with them. I say unaffiliated in that they have no affiliation with LOI clubs (in a strict sense).

And it's not just in Ireland where schoolboy clubs do this, Russia, Croatia, Bosnia, Ukraine, Latvia - they'll happily flog off a player just for a quick buck (and nice advertisement to parents of potential players) and then claim they owe no loyalty to the national team or league.

[desaintsno.12]

Ah I know money is essentia andl in bucket loads too, I suppose what I was saying is it depends on what additional money is spent on whether it make a serious difference. At one time Drogheda and Cork and Shels, for example, were paying players the sort of money that players can only dream of currently. If there is a cash injection from anywhere players will look to push up wages. It would be up to clubs to be careful of wher any additional monies will end up - being absorbed by increased demands of the current player pool rather than investing in future players.

Yeah - basically you need money and to be smart with money

text book Irish behaviour. Sadly i dont see it changing for a long time anyway

[outspoken]

There were 9 yellows at the Bowl yesterday, and most of those were deserved.

I don't see why that's the FAI's fault.

And the red card in athlone was deserved too

[nigel-harps1954]

There were 9 yellows at the Bowl yesterday, and most of those were deserved.

I don't see why that's the FAI's fault.

Not really my point, it was just backing up my earlier post regarding the amount the FAI lift out of the league.

Besides, they weren't all deserved.

[Real ale Madrid]

I think it's important to consider who we're playing against. The Luxembourg team we beat, for example, had a budget of €2m per annum. They had three players on €5k a week or more. That's serious stuff, but on the face of it, you'd just think yerrah, sure this is just a small team from Luxembourg

Those are mental figures - if Dudelange had 3 guys on 5k a week then for example Richie Towell should just go there - feic the lower leagues in England. In fact any of our top players should go to Luxembourg and get 5k a week!

[SkStu]

I think that the spirit of this thread is off. The league is doing as well as can be expected all things considered. It is not really the fault of the clubs, the players, the managers, the fans etc - each of those gives their all (except Nutsy), especially when it comes to European campaigns. The problems with domestic league football are systemic and the fault lies squarely at the feet of the FAI and league administration. The key to even moderate European success is financial and using finances to invest in facilities/youth systems and attract/produce better players all of which leads to success which attracts more fans which brings more euros and so on and makes the success and attraction sustainable. Most clubs are doing their best to get bums on seats and engage their communities but it is often done on a voluntary basis, off the side of someones desk/life and receives little to no support from any *body*. Its a disgrace. Rather than focus on why we don't win matches in Europe from season to season we need to get back to addressing the root cause. F*ck All Interest.

[pineapple stu]

Not really my point, it was just backing up my earlier post regarding the amount the FAI lift out of the league.

Besides, they weren't all deserved.

Ah, most of them were.

It's just a bugbear of mine that a high number of cards is never the fault of the players - there's always something wrong with the referees (or it's a conspiracy on the part of the FAI) when there's more than 4 players booked in a match.

The FAI have lots of things to answer for, but the number of yellow cards over the weekend isn't one of them.