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Thread: Gaa 2015

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    International Prospect NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    Gaa 2015

    God awful game in Thurles yesterday, with the referee botching things left, right and centre, but delighted to see Limerick win. I won't lie: Large part of it was also in seeing Clare lose. The difference between Ryan and Fitzgerald in interviews and at pitch side is so stark.

    Can't see Limerick getting past Tipp in Munster another time, home advantage or not, but it's good to see them be way more competitive in the province over the last few years.
    Last edited by NeverFeltBetter; 25/05/2015 at 10:45 AM.
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    Banned Lim till i die's Avatar
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    Clare's biggest problem is Davy Fitz.

    Has a highly talented group of young fellas pulling and dragging and diving and doubling up instead of letting them hurl.

    I hope any notions about him being a tactical mastermind have been put to bed aswell after yesterday. How he left O'Donnell on Lynch for two thirds of the game is beyond me. Absolutely roasted.

    His post match interview once again belied a man with some fairly serious looking mental issues.

    On Limerick it was very encouraging in that we've lost literally dozens of those kind of games down through the years, winning while playing badly is not something we do too often!

    Plenty of room for improvement before the Tipp game. Nicky Quaid and Downes could be back, Hickey isn't fully fit yet I think, Hannon needs to involve himself more and Dowling needs to concentrate more.

    Whatever about the Tipp game, quietly confident of another fairly long Summer.

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    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Don't insult our Davy. I won't let anybody get away with that.

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    http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/c...es-334110.html

    I particularly like Sean Kelly's suggestion for restructuring the football championship.

    Its well worth trying this for a few years. The Sky will not fall and its not as if it cannot be adjusted if there are teething problems.

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    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    The problem with Kelly's suggestion is that no one will take the B competition seriously.

    There needs to be a Senior and Intermediate All Ireland - and you either take your place in 1 or the other. Like every other GAA grading system. 1 up / 1 down. That is the only way to get counties to commit to it. Every County will be a potential 2 years from an All Ireland instead of 1.

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    International Prospect NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    Really disappointing stuff in Gaelic Grounds today. Limerick had a real lack of concentration at times, evident most whenever Tipp's short puckouts found a man with no one near him, which was just maddening to watch. Backline bad, full forward line suffocated. Seemed like Tipp had another gear they could just move into whenever they got in trouble, happened in each half. Capitulation in last 20 minutes was embarrassing.

    Wexford suffering a bit worse today as well. I hope Galway can do something to stop Kilkenny, and Waterford to Tipp, because the AH is threatening to go back to that interminable Cats/Premier domination.
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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    The problem with Kelly's suggestion is that no one will take the B competition seriously.

    There needs to be a Senior and Intermediate All Ireland - and you either take your place in 1 or the other. Like every other GAA grading system. 1 up / 1 down. That is the only way to get counties to commit to it. Every County will be a potential 2 years from an All Ireland instead of 1.
    Seeding for the sake of seeding.

    To be honest if we just had a bloody open draw and removed the Provincial Championships as then that will sort us. There's this obsession with the amount of games teams get in the AI Championships and all the prep etc etc.

    32(ish) teams seeded from the leagues and then off ya pop.


    EDIT:

    Ages ago I had this huge Inter-county calendar and to be honest I honestly think it should be just pared back to a straight knock out.

    Then I just decided to do this today:
    League Div1 and 2 seeded in the first round on two sides of the draw and then just (Div1 double seeded so tehy can't meet another Div1 team until at least QF.)


    So...

    [But I can't paste a table from excel]
    Last edited by BonnieShels; 25/06/2015 at 3:23 PM.
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    Seasoned Pro Kingdom's Avatar
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    The league is a waste of time and money. The provincial pre-season's in football are a sham. Football generally is much more competitive than the hurling as a total competition.

    I'd be happy to see the Provincial Championships retained in stead of the league, but to have no impact on the All-Ireland. The only realistic chance of glory for a Sligo, Leitrim, Limerick, Westmeath, Fermanagh etc.

    Then the All-Ireland starts on the first of May, open draw, with a loser's round to augment the championship. Matches every fortnight. It isn't fair how the clubs are being killed off by the inter-county teams.
    Here they come! It’s the charge of the “Thanks” Brigade!

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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom View Post
    The league is a waste of time and money. The provincial pre-season's in football are a sham. Football generally is much more competitive than the hurling as a total competition.

    I'd be happy to see the Provincial Championships retained in stead of the league, but to have no impact on the All-Ireland. The only realistic chance of glory for a Sligo, Leitrim, Limerick, Westmeath, Fermanagh etc.

    Then the All-Ireland starts on the first of May, open draw, with a loser's round to augment the championship. Matches every fortnight. It isn't fair how the clubs are being killed off by the inter-county teams.
    The Leagues are far from a waste of time and money. They give consistent competitive games over a sustained period like all Leagues should. The leagues as they stand are as good as they have ever been. I mean look at KIL and WTH relegation from D1 to D2 to D3 and then FER's rise with ARM to D2 as a result of competitive campaigns. They are a useful barometer and give a good properly competitive chance at blooding young players. I would not touch them. Maybe a calendar tweak but nothing more.

    I would rid ourselves of the pre-season comps. They serve next to no purpose.

    The provincial championships need to be removed from the All-Ireland series completely. It is absolutely disgraceful that DON in order to win Ulster have to play TYR>ARM>DER>MON wheras to win Munster KER get to beat TIP and CRK. Madness for them to be landing in the championship at the same point. Same goes for the dross we have to play in Leinster.

    As regards the Championship, I would have it as an open draw after the first round. Your League placing should seed you initially on entry.

    ---

    The conmundrum is what to do with the Provincial championships. Clearly they hold more value for some over others (See WTH yday) but where would they go and what purpose would they serve?

    Make them into a pre-season comp? Have them as the augmented championship for the losers as they get knocked out of the AI series.

    One thing's for sure, the A and B side of the draw has to go.
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    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    given the 32 teams (in football anyway) would there be anything to be said for a seeded 8 group format, last 16, etc akin to the World Cup? The only downside would be the possible length of time to do it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    given the 32 teams (in football anyway) would there be anything to be said for a seeded 8 group format, last 16, etc akin to the World Cup? The only downside would be the possible length of time to do it?
    It could be done but it would have way too many games and we would be sick of it pretty quickly. I don't mind teh format as it stands to be fair I just hate the lack of equality in the Provinces. I woudl just have an open draw seeded for the first round based on league position and leave it at that.
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    International Prospect NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    If a secondary tier is introduced, how would it be split? Just going by the state of the NFL for next year, dividing between Division 1/2 and 3/4, only two counties in Munster would be top tier. Three in Connacht. Three in Leinster. Eight in Ulster. So, would you have to have a top heavy tier?

    Also, just realising that Kilkenny don't even enter a team in the football anymore. I know I shouldn't be surprised, but I guess I thought the GAA would have raised a stink over that?
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

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    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    There should be 2 tiers - 16 teams in each and the only way you should be able to progress from the bottom tier to the top tier is by winning it.

    Just.like.every.other.GAA.competition.ever.

    The problem is the provincial championships.
    The provincial councils want to maintain the power they have. I don't see why the minor and u-21 competitions can't remain provincially based. Plus I don't see the hurling championship's being changed any time soon. Common sense has to prevail eventually.

    By the way a 32 county open draw system would do very little for the weaker counties. 2 heavy defeats and they would be out - same as now.

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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter View Post
    If a secondary tier is introduced, how would it be split? Just going by the state of the NFL for next year, dividing between Division 1/2 and 3/4, only two counties in Munster would be top tier. Three in Connacht. Three in Leinster. Eight in Ulster. So, would you have to have a top heavy tier?

    Also, just realising that Kilkenny don't even enter a team in the football anymore. I know I shouldn't be surprised, but I guess I thought the GAA would have raised a stink over that?
    If 8 of the top 16 teams in the country are from Uloster then so be it. It is what it is.

    How would you get relegated so from the top tier where the seedings are based on the League but promotion is based on winning the Tier 2 Championship?

    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    There should be 2 tiers - 16 teams in each and the only way you should be able to progress from the bottom tier to the top tier is by winning it.

    Just.like.every.other.GAA.competition.ever.

    The problem is the provincial championships.
    The provincial councils want to maintain the power they have. I don't see why the minor and u-21 competitions can't remain provincially based. Plus I don't see the hurling championship's being changed any time soon. Common sense has to prevail eventually.

    By the way a 32 county open draw system would do very little for the weaker counties. 2 heavy defeats and they would be out - same as now.
    I think the stumbling block of the provincials is the biggest issue. Until that's resolved then a 32- or 16-team championship would be merely pie-in-the-sky.

    Now can anyone tell me how to upload an excel or table...
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    International Prospect NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    If 8 of the top 16 teams in the country are from Uloster then so be it. It is what it is.
    Sorry, for some reason I deleted a sentence without realising it. The point I was trying to make was how introducing a second tier would automatically make redundant the provincials because Ulster would be the only one left that wouldn't be one or two games long. If for no other reason, I think the powers that be in the provinces would resist because of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter View Post
    Sorry, for some reason I deleted a sentence without realising it. The point I was trying to make was how introducing a second tier would automatically make redundant the provincials because Ulster would be the only one left that wouldn't be one or two games long. If for no other reason, I think the powers that be in the provinces would resist because of that.
    You're still talking in terms of Provincials though with this 2 Tier 32 (2*16) team championship. Get rid of the Provinicials from the system altogether.

    ---

    It needs to be realised that the All-Ireland Championship is already underway. The Provinicial Championships run in parallel to it.
    The further you get in your Provinicial Championship means you'll get into the All-Ireland Championship at a later stage.

    If we start looking at it this way (the way it is) then people will realise what a crock of sh!t the Provinicials are.

    Again, that the Munster Champion and Ulster Champion, despite the disparity of the Championships, both get entered at QF stage shows up just how insane it is.

    Let the provincials act as a supplementary competition for those knocked out of the All-Ireland Series. Not the other way round.

    ---

    On your point about KK football, which is a disgrace, the GAA were unlikely to have any issues with it, especially given they have no issues with Cavan having no senior hurling team anymore.
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    I was at the game and saw some of what Jim talks about wrt to Cian O'Sullivan.
    I'm just always fascinated by what the great analysts and coaches see when watching games. just how they pick up on nuance that we could only dream of. Very much like listening to Kenny Cunningham.

    This is a great read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim McGuinness, The Irish Times
    The Westmeath –Meath game was, as they say in Donegal, just mental and terrific entertainment. But I left Croke Park with Dublin on my mind. I feel it was a very important day for the future direction of Gaelic football yesterday.
    I was surprised there wasn’t more made of what Dublin did against Kildare. A subtle but significant change took place in Dublin’s approach and their football philosophy. They have made themselves more difficult to beat after a performance which contained so much to admire and which made me slightly fearful of what is to come.
    The first thing that struck me was that MD Macauley and Rory O’Carroll were listed among the substitutes but started the game, which was a new departure for Dublin. They tend not to play games like that and it suggested to me that they felt this was an important game for them. It looked like they went with their strongest 15. In the taxi on the way to Croke Park, I was excited to see what might be different since we played them last August.
    My gut feeling was that I would see the same system from all four teams. Dublin played man-to-man with a sweeper dropping back in some national league games and as it turned out, Meath, Kildare and Westmeath replicated that.
    Cover space
    For Dublin, Cian O’Sullivan was the sweeper dropping back to cover space in front of the Kildare full forward line. Nothing radical in that. But it was the Dublin defensive system that fascinated me. They had spoken a lot about core values and man to man defence and the principles of Dublin football. But there has been a definite paradigm shift which I feel will make them very hard to beat.
    So Dublin went man to man with O’Sullivan sweeping – and occasionally Jack McCaffrey. But the interesting thing was that when Kildare attacked them, they left their men and stepped off them and drifted from that into protecting the D, like an arc which is a zonal system. If the ball was pushed out to the wing, they sometimes stepped up again and went man to man. The other thing they were doing defensively is they were passing players on. If someone ran across the D and, say, the ball was on the left wing, they would pass that player on and keep the pressure on the ball in a zone format.
    So in doing that, they have taken control back again. We had control last year when we played them because we could take the Dublin players where we wanted them. Because they stayed man to man we could dictate their movement.
    I remember Paddy McGrath asking: ‘what if that doesn’t happen’. But we were 100 per cent sure they would go man-to-man on us. So this year Dublin have said: we are good enough to go man to man in the front and middle thirds of the pitch. But we are not going to concede the last third and allow teams to go straight down the middle. So they are playing smart and know when to drop off their man and when to defend the central area.
    I recalled hearing they had spent some time in the winter working with Mark Ingle, the basketball coach. That was interesting because they looked very fluid against Kildare, as if they have a very high level of understanding of what they are doing. I feel they have a lot of work done on it. So here is the significant thing: if they aren’t giving up the middle and their mantra is not to concede goals, what do you do? Donegal’s performance against Dublin was one of the best we delivered in my time in charge and we still could only hold them to 0-16. So chances are you will have to score at least 0-17 to beat them – and that is not allowing for their potency in scoring goals.
    Defensive shape
    The other significant thing in terms of their defensive shape was that on the opposition kick-out they pushed everyone up except for O’Sullivan and their full back line. So you had 11 Dublin players spread out inside the Kildare half. Some were man marking, some were zonal/splitting and they forced Kildare to kick long which worked really well for them. But once the game was done and dusted on the scoreboard, they then pushed everybody up to conceal Cian O’Sullivan’s role. That tells me that we can be guaranteed Dublin’s central tenet this summer is they will not give up the middle.
    They are phenomenal on the transition. Their pace and power and movement is just incredible and they get from one end of the pitch to the other so quickly. I think three Dublin goals came off Stephen Cluxton’s kick out. Cluxton creates a quandary for all teams. If you try to beat Dublin by pushing up, Cluxton has radar-like precision and is able to cause major damage by going over the top. But if you give them the kick out, it is inviting an onslaught. You end up handing them 40 possessions in a match. It is difficult to see how a team can do that and still concede less than 17 points because Dublin’s conversion rate is so high.
    So that philosophical shift they have made – and the defensive adjustment they have made – are massive changes. The other thing is – bad news for all full backs – they appear to have become even better inside. They had three men inside – rotating between Dean Rock, Bernard Brogan and Kevin McManamon.
    Normally two full forwards would play inside the large square and the other on the D in a conventional triangle. But they were stretched 50 metres apart and the other near the ‘45’. That creates a horrible problem for the sweeper. So where does he position himself? He cannot cover that ground. Even with a double sweeper, the space is incredible. Then what impressed me was the aggression and length of the runs made by the inside men. Forty metre sprints to win the ball and winning the ball at full speed: the Dubs were doing this again and again. That ability to win the ball at full speed is very difficult to coach – and to defend against.
    Then you had Ciarán Kilkenny, Paul Flynn and Diarmuid Connolly coming from deep. They fist the ball inside a lot, which increases the pass-completion percentage. Then their ability to kick long-range points comes into it. I am listing all these things as an example of the number of questions they are now asking. They have retained all the threats they carried last year but they have become much more difficult to break down.
    The scary thing is I felt they were flicking between second and third gear and it made me feel apprehensive for my own county and for all other counties. Because if they are just in third gear and have all these new processes in place: whenever they run out the tunnel with the focus and the attitude and the fire in their belly to play a top team and if they then hit fifth gear, well, that force that could be very hard to hold. The other aspect of their play that is significant is that all their goals and many of their points reflected a new-found unselfishness.
    I don’t believe that was there previously in other years. And then – finally – there is the matter of their bench. Alan Brogan, Michael Fitzsimons, Paddy Andrews, James McCarthy; All-Ireland-winning players coming onto the field of play. The overall age profile is probably mid-20s and they have a group of U-21 All-Ireland winners waiting just to get into the squad.
    So Dublin have reflected and have done a huge amount of work. They have created a new system for themselves. They put that in motion yesterday.
    This has wider repercussions for the game. Most teams take their lead from the top teams – and Dublin are the most frequently imitated. So I think the other teams in Leinster will bite the bullet and go down this road now also. Dublin have been absolutely dominant in Leinster because it was man to man all over the pitch and other counties followed suit. If Dublin have bitten the bullet, I think Mayo may do the same and then perhaps the other Connacht teams will follow that. Most managers take their lead from the top teams.
    I have a problem with that. Managers need to be more original and come up with their own strategies. Now Dublin are moving to this system and people will copy that. The challenge is not to copy them but to come up with a system to beat them.
    Which could be easier said than done. For me, there are not many boxes left to tick for Dublin going on Sunday’s performance. They have made themselves much more difficult to beat.
    New system
    I am not saying Dublin are invincible. But I am honestly not sure right now how they can be beaten with what they can bring to the table. What we did last year clearly won’t work this time around.
    They have taken zero away from their strategy but have devised a new system. They looked more like a team on Sunday too. You could see the communication and the passing on and that they were working in concert. You can argue there was a gulf in standard on Sunday. But what could Kildare have done differently? How do you take that athleticism on? How do you stop Cluxton’s precision? How do you break them down? The list of questions they pose for all teams is very, very long now.
    Dublin cast a very long shadow before the championship started but, at times on Sunday, it looked more like an eclipse.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gael...tion-1.2267131
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    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Is today the day Cork finally get their act together?

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    They better.

    So far so good.
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    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Act firmly together - Pairc Ui Franc out of commission so back to Killarney on the 18th.

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