Kevin Nolan, Jamie O'Hara and Mark Noble

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Danny, I don't actually have a problem with anyone else criticizing me.

I specifically have a problem with you doing it because you constantly resort to personal attacks and insults and it devalues everything else you say in my eyes. You have done it in two separate posts in this thread alone since my last response i.e. "silly line of reasoning". You also (intentionally?) miss the point of probably 25% of my posts. It goes over your head. So it's a waste of time arguing with you about it and repeating the cycle.

You said you were going to disengage with me several times now but you cannot do it.

Just to reiterate. I have no problems with people conjecturing over players with Irish surnames or Irish names whether they are Adam Maher, Kennedy Bakircioglu, David Healy, Stefan O'Connor. I just don't see the value of the exercise - as the vast majority of new recruits don't have indicator surnames and/or if they are good enough they may want to play for England and/or maybe we aren't giving them enough credit and they have the enterprise to get in touch with the FAI.

And I have no problems with players declaring if they show the right attitude (not Mark Noble). It doesn't sit right with me when eligible players are fast tracked and/or called up ahead of Irish born players who are of a similar level. Sorry.

And the comments that caused this furore..... I don't get how they caused annoyance. Really. Unless it's annoyance that it was a sh*tty attempt at humor on my part, in which case...

[DannyInvincible]

You whinge any time anyone ever pokes fun at your faulty line of reasoning or at something contentious you've said, as if we're all out to get you or you're the only one who's ever at the butt of criticism or a joke on here. There are plenty of examples of this around the forum. This is just a recent one. Sorry, I can't help being entertained, but I'll stop laughing at you when you stop whinging.

And of course you'd say my manner or whatever devalues the overall point; sure it allows you to avoid actually engaging logically in debate...

Just to reiterate. I have no problems with people conjecturing over players with Irish surnames or Irish names whether they are Adam Maher, Kennedy Bakircioglu, David Healy, Stefan O'Connor. I just don't see the value of the exercise - as the vast majority of new recruits don't have indicator surnames and/or if they are good enough they may want to play for England and/or maybe we aren't giving them enough credit and they have the enterprise to get in touch with the FAI.

Look, I dunno if you're doing it on purpose or if you're genuinely unaware that you're committing a serious logical fallacy here, but, as it offends my senses, I'll try and explain it to you very simply and as politely as possible. You're inferring something inversely here and obfuscating two separate, independent matters. You're assuming it's unlikely that unknown players with Irish surnames will be eligible because a significant number of our England-born recruits haven't had Irish surnames. The way you present this may seem superficially convincing, but the latter has absolutely no bearing on whether or not an unknown player with a surname of Irish origin will be eligible.

You are reasoning in the following form, which is invalid:

1. If many of our recruits have Irish surnames, then there is value in investigating the potential eligibility of players with Irish surnames.
2. Many of our recruits do not have Irish surnames.
3. Therefore, there is no value in investigating the potential eligibility of players with Irish surnames.

It's called denying the antecedent.

Furthermore, it is undeniable that if one was presented with an unknown player with an Irish surname and an unknown player with a non-Irish surname, the likelihood of the former being eligible will be greater than the likelihood of the latter being eligible. We're simply talking about something being more likely than something else. I can't really help you see the error of your ways any better than that, I'm afraid, but I hope you take note.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hmm, this thread has reached the point of being, er, pointless...

Kevin Nolan has a lot to answer for, Scouse twit.

[geysir]

Hmm, this thread has reached the point of being, er, pointless...

Kevin Nolan has a lot to answer for, Scouse twit.

Therefore Kevin Nolan is pointless?

[nigel-harps1954]

Therefore Kevin Nolan is pointless?

As such, he should be rewarded with the coveted pointless trophy.

http://www.jammaplus.co.uk/forum/upl.../pointless.JPG

[ArdeeBhoy]

Therefore Kevin Nolan is pointless?

In an Irish international context!

[osarusan]

Danny, I don't actually have a problem with anyone else criticizing me.

I specifically have a problem with you doing it

You whinge any time anyone ever.....

I thought you two had each other on ignore?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Or get a room...

[Crosby87]

It says in the paper today that the number one pizza topping in europe is tuna. WTF lads?

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

I don't "whinge" any time anyone ever pokes fun at my "faulty" line of reasoning. I complain about you belittling me and insulting me in every post you make. I don't insult you or belittle you. I think you are mature enough to extend me the same courtesy? No? I wasn't even going to post another response in this thread until you goaded me into it by belittling me a second time.

I'm avoiding logical debate? I made a couple of humorous posts about people conjecturing over someone's eligibility because of his surname (which I have no problem with) which, in my opinion, was misconstrued as an assault on free speech and second and third generation players. I explained why I think conjecturing over English born players with Irish surnames like Stefan O'Connor & Jason McCarthy is not a worthwhile experience and I elaborated on this in a succinct and analytical manner. Now I would understand your condescension if I had simply said I disagreed with it and not explained why or if I had belligerently asserted that people should stop doing it, but I didn't.

It's an opinion I have. I understand people may think differently. There is no right and wrong party here like you are determined to assert and push on others.

No. I think you misunderstand. My entire point is that equal, if not more, credence should be given to English born players with names that aren't Irish. My whole point is that people are conjecturing over players simply because they have Irish surnames. More than anything, I think a player's talent and accomplishments at underage level should take precedence over the fact they happen to be on the bench for a Premier League game once and so must be good. That is why I think you just oversimplified what I was saying.

I also think that, rather than pursuing players with Irish sounding surnames who are probably not eligible and/or not interested, players should be encouraged to be proactive, motivated, independent and get into contact with the FAI to clarify their wish to play for Ireland.

I imagine that this is similar to what Samir Carruthers, Reece Grego-Cox, Bradley Lewis and Jon Walters before them done. I don't think the FAI were scrolling through phonebooks looking for players with Irish sounding surnames.

I'm sorry for boring everyone but his condescension, patronizing manner and forcefulness made me feel like I had to respond.

I promise that will be the last I say on this matter - rather than let this redundant debate drag out any longer.

[Charlie Darwin]

Lads, can you create your own thread for these long, winding "this is the last I'll have to say on the matter and I've blocked you now" love letters?

[punkrocket]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maghreb
A bit of background on the Maghrebi region of North West Africa
Now we can start looking for players with the surname Barber as well.

[DannyInvincible]

I'll stick strictly to point and ignore the other blather.

No. I think you misunderstand. My entire point is that equal, if not more, credence should be given to English born players with names that aren't Irish.

But how, in the first place, would you have any way of knowing that a random, unknown player born in England with a non-Irish surname would be eligible/ineligible before checking? And why would you, in the absence of any knowledge of such a player's possible eligibility/ineligibility, decide to check on such a random player anyway when there'd be absolutely nothing in his visible profile (like an Irish surname, for example) to indicate that there's at least a chance he might be eligible? Why would you ever decide to investigate his roots ahead of someone with an Irish surname? I've pointed out very clearly the faulty logic in your reverse line of reasoning, but there's not much else I can do if you simply cannot understand the logical fallacy you're committing when you regurgitate this point. People might think differently, but it doesn't mean you're thinking or arguing logically.

And no one's accused you of assaulting free speech. Don't be daft.

I also think that, rather than pursuing players with Irish sounding surnames who are probably not eligible...

But you won't know that they're not eligible until you check with them. That's the whole point. An Irish surname is an indicator of something that is possible and, more probably, will bring you a positive result over investigating a completely random non-Irish surname from the outset.

...players should be encouraged to be proactive, motivated, independent and get into contact with the FAI to clarify their wish to play for Ireland.

I imagine that this is similar to what Samir Carruthers, Reece Grego-Cox, Bradley Lewis and Jon Walters before them done. I don't think the FAI were scrolling through phonebooks looking for players with Irish sounding surnames.

Good for those lads, but how do we encourage unknown players to do that? I know you like to speak in platitudes without much concern for the practicality of what you're actually saying, but the reality is that many players don't or won't take the initiative for whatever reason. It doesn't mean we should give up on them. I explained here why we shouldn't and why we should still be keeping eyes out rather than waiting in the dark: http://foot.ie/threads/187472-Irish-...=1#post1800963

Lads, can you create your own thread for these long, winding "this is the last I'll have to say on the matter and I've blocked you now" love letters?

I'd happily do that - in fact, I tried doing it with another issue (Anthony Stokes and sectarianism in Scotland) a while back - but I don't think TOWK likes to actually debate the nitty-gritty of issues. He wasn't remotely interested in the PMing idea either. Seeing as you also appear to like Charlie's idea, why not set a thread up, TOWK, and we'll chat away in there 'til our hearts content. I'm sure...

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

"I'll stick strictly to point and ignore the other blather".

"I've pointed out very clearly the faulty logic in your reverse line of reasoning, but there's not much else I can do if you simply cannot understand the logical fallacy you're committing when you regurgitate this point".

"Good for those lads, but how do we encourage unknown players to do that? I know you like to speak in platitudes without much concern for the practicality of what you're actually saying".

"but I don't think TOWK likes to actually debate the nitty-gritty of issues. He wasn't remotely interested in the PMing idea either".

Cut out the insulting, condescending, patronising and belligerent tone of your posts, the provocation and the questionable narrative and I might be bothered to go around this in circles with you another 5 or 6 times because you can't grasp what my problem is with you.

As for the highlighted in bold. I am not going to dignify that with a response. Suffice to say we both know what the real truth of that is.

I'm wondering if there may have been another reason for you getting banned on OWC...

[Closed Account]

"I'll stick strictly to point and ignore the other blather".

Ignoring everything else TOWK. What do you think of the more general point Danny has made? i.e it doesn't make any sense to focus on English players without Irish sounding names.