Let's hope the footage doesn't get doctoredOriginally Posted by Kiki Balboa
And he was eventually booked for a very late challenge towards the end of the match.
#DundalkFC - First Irish club to win an away game in Europe (1963), first Irish club to win points in a group stage in Europe (2016).
Let's hope the footage doesn't get doctored
I think the rule around political messages is a progressive one.
Article 16 - Order and security at UEFA competition matches
(e) 'the use of gestures, words, objects or any other means to transmit any message that is not fit for a sports event, particularly messages that are of apolitical, ideological, religious, offensive or provocative nature;'
If you want all right wing, racist, fascist symbols/flags be banned from football grounds then Uefa rightfully has to ban all expressions that do not fit at a sporting event.
Uefa can't have a bias. Also the fine can't be just porportional depending on sympathies with one wing or another.
Robbie Fowler got fined for his show of support at one game for the Liverpool dockers.
That list of incidents reported to Fare during July 2014. does not carry any weight of veracity or proof. Just because something is on that list does not mean it happened, nor does it mean there is proof that it happened, eg the Dundalk incident mentioned
Overall, it's a rational price to pay in order to rid football grounds of expressions of hate and racism.
In Dundalk's case, it's somewhat farcical that they pay the same fine as Real Madrid would for the same infringement. Isn't there some country that inflicts motoring offence fines in proportion to earnings?
Germany, I think, Geysir.
Surely it's legally possible to make it a condition of entry that fans indemnify their club for any of their actions that cause the club to be fined? Maybe it's something that needs to be done on a league basis.
Hello, hello? What's going on? What's all this shouting, we'll have no trouble here!
- E Tattsyrup.
I guess that's the away end upgrade shelved for another few years?
Article 16 - Order and security at UEFA competition matches
(e) 'the use of gestures, words, objects or any other means to transmit any message that is not fit for a sports event, particularly messages that are of apolitical, ideological, religious, offensive or provocative nature;
This is so broad it could really include anything. Celtic jerseys at a Republic of Ireland v say England or Scotland could be deemed offensive by some under political, religious, or provocative terms. Celtic fans using the tricolour (im not picking on celtic) at european games. I understand the principle and necessity of such rules but a mockery of the rules happens with obvious inconsistency eg when overt racism recieves token attention.
And this includes national flags?
The flag waving of Palestinian flags was interpreted as a political message and inappropriate to the game.
There is no hard and fast, rigid interpretation of the statute and Uefa have their own standards of reasonable proof.
If this was a regular enough event at a Dundalk game, Dundalk fans with Palestine ethnicity who are also promoting their ethnicity, then that would be grounds for an explanation to the Uefa observer or if it went further - solid grounds for an appeal.
Offhand I can think of old Rangers fc who successfully appealed a Uefa fine, their fans getting with giving fascist salutes to Israeli fans, something to do with the old tradition of the red hand of ulster defence, pulled out of nowhere.
And what about the poppy on the jersey thing with England.
Would I be stopped from entering the ground if I had a Palestinian badge on?
That was just cheeky!!
So on the basis of ethnicity the tricolour at Celtic games could be overlooked even if it is provocative. Should have told the delegate that we have a couple of palestinian fans - i doubt he would have asked to meet them and is about as legit as the rangers bluff
Well that's what I think is the problem, UEFA giving themselves the power to interpret the intent behind the display of a national flag. It's not like a swastika or a celtic cross where it's inadmissible in any instance, this is the flag of a country, and a FIFA member at that.
I was thinking that's what the SSA should do. Just track down a couple of Palestinians, convert them to the Dundalk cause, and then whether they show up at the match or not, you can say you're paying tribute to a section of the club's support.
I can't see how that would make a difference. The display of the flags, or the transmission of the message deemed unfit, in other words, was not prevented by the club.
That's a comically stupid "official" statement reeking of buffoonish posturing, mock outrage and plenty of ego. The SSA clearly have little grasp or appreciation of the regulations concerned or of how said regulations might apply to the club they purport to support. Demanding an immediate statement and apology from their hosts - the club - and then, even more embarrassingly, from UEFA?! That actually made me laugh out loud. What planet are they on? Nobody was silencing their right to free speech per se; if they wanted to protest against the bombardment and occupation of Gaza or demonstrate solidarity with the Palestinian people, there was plenty of public space upon which they could have done that outside of Oriel Park and off the property of the football club.
They could even have taken selfies and videos of their flag-waving exploits and posted them off to Gaza first-class just so those many long-suffering Gazans who had been watching the match live and who had, in vain, been looking out for absent Palestine flags would definitely still have known they were in the hearts, thoughts and prayers of those renowned humanitarian heroes, the SSA... The SSA were paying guests of Dundalk FC; if you're a visitor on someone's property, you adhere to the rules and expectations of the house.
And, sweet Jesus, if you're going to make a pretty stupid public statement, at least don't be completely stupid about it; it's "there were four" and not "there was four", "are being coldly murdered" and not "are been coldly murdered", and there should never be an apostrophe in "ours" or a 'h' in "were"! Sorry, but that sort of careless disregard just grates with me in a supposedly-serious public statement.
How so? Dundalk tried to prevent the display of the flags as instructed by the UEFA delegate and in accordance with the governing regulations.
I think it would literally fall foul of the rule. I imagine you'd only be stopped, however, if a Dundalk steward, having spotted it, thought it was overt enough to be perceived as transmitting an inappropriate message or if the UEFA delegate noticed it and recommended its removal to the club.
Interestingly, Aberystwyth had poppies on their jerseys when the played Derry. Will I report them or will you?
But this was anything but apolitical!
I'd say the rule is more self-interested than progressive; UEFA seek to promote as neutral and apolitical an image and governing arena as possible, lest potentially-provocative imagery were to deter sponsors and investment. Offend nobody; be everyone's friend; that's the mantra. As for my own opinion of the rule, it's a terribly numbing and sanitising one that neuters football crowds and disarms them of their human sentiments, character, qualities and emotions. What are football teams really if not channels through which the human identities of their fans can be expressed? Since when did a football match have to be such a blandly cordial affair? What is and isn't objectively fit for a sporting event anyway? In an ideal world, waving Palestine flags at a Europa League qualifier would be no problem, even if orchestrated by clueless, ignorant idiots with little knowledge of the Middle Eastern conflict. I say, let fans display what they want and if something falls foul of the law of the land, then the law of the land can deal with it. It's a regressive UEFA law, that is; it stunts and chokes expression within stadia to a degree that not even the law of the land does. Need UEFA really make it their business? Is that practical?If you want all right wing, racist, fascist symbols/flags be banned from football grounds then Uefa rightfully has to ban all expressions that do not fit at a sporting event.
Uefa can't have a bias. Also the fine can't be just porportional depending on sympathies with one wing or another.
Robbie Fowler got fined for his show of support at one game for the Liverpool dockers.
...
Overall, it's a rational price to pay in order to rid football grounds of expressions of hate and racism.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 24/08/2014 at 3:02 AM.
Danny - I think the fact the club tried to remove the flags will go in their favour for a smaller fine but as you said they failed to remove them and the club will face sanctions over that as for the media comment with the Palestine case being such a strongly supported one here you'd imagine a small Irish club showing their support for Gaza only to be punished would grab quite a lot of Media attention which in turn may put UEFA under pressure as unlikely as it is.
It is, Their is a flag that has been at games in Oriel and away games for years that has a Palestine flag on it
https://www.google.ie/search?q=dunda...15%3B309%3B154
Was there a controversy over this flag a few years ago?
Not too my knowledge mate. Il ask around in the pub later but Cant think of anything
I found the story. It was from a few years ago:
FAI brand Palestinian flag as "racist"
by Keith Wallace
Wed, Apr 08 2009
Dundalk FC have been reported and will face a fine over the display of a Palestinian flag by their supporters during last weekend's 3-1 win at Sligo Rovers, after the FAI branded the flag as "racist". However, last night, the Louth club challenged the FAI, stating they are treating the matter "very seriously" and "considering making an official complaint".
Offending banner
"Our fans were very well behaved and did themselves proud [in Sligo]," club secretary Kevin Holland wrote in the Dundalk FC Magazine for the visit of Shamrock Rovers to Oriel Park on Tuesday night. "But during the game the FAI match delegate summoned our Chairman and informed him that he would be reporting Dundalk FC for the display of a racist banner. What was the offending banner? The Dundalk flag that we have seen in Oriel Park for many, many years that features a Palestinian flag. Now, I do not profess to be an expert in these matters - but how can a flag that features an internationally recognised flag be deemed as racist?
Official complaint
"The Palestinian flag is flying outside the United Nations building in New York," he added. "Also, members of the Gardai were standing in front of the flag during the game and didn't have any problem with it. This accusation may be ridiculous but I am treating it very seriously. The Board of Dundalk will be considering making an official complaint against the FAI over this incident. Darren Mansaram was the victim of racist abuse against Drogheda and there was also some racist abuse chanted his way by Sligo fans near where I was sitting in Sligo. To equate a flag to these incidents is disgusting and downright offensive."
One of the concerns I have is the inconsistency of these fines.
Dundalk being fined €20000 for displaying the flag of a FIFA member state Palestine while Bayern Munich were fined only €10000 for their fans displaying the flag of Kosovo who are not FIFA members.
There's a bit of a appeals case here already - precedence of palestinian flag in Oriel many years before the Split match. The size of the fine given to Bayern Munich considereing the difference in the exposure that a political statement would get compared to Dundalk. Now all we need to do is get that Palestinian Dundalk FC Supporters club going ...... what fine! It will be interesting to see what proportion the flag incident makes up of the total fine.
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