Republic of Ireland V Sweden - Friday, 6th September 2013 - World Cup 2014 Qualifier

[ArdeeBhoy]

To win a raffle...

[DannyInvincible]

Do we genuinely have the ability to consistently compete with the more technically-proficient sides though? A team like Croatia will always be favourites in a game between themselves and ourselves. Qualification will always be more likely for them than it is for us. I use them as a standard or as an example of where we could be with some astute organisation as we share similar populations but they make such a better job of the resources they have available to them.

I suppose what I'm saying is that things could be a lot better than how they are now where we're talking about merely competing with second or third-seeded teams. Can't we hope of consistently beating them some day? It sounds a bit clichéd, but last time we beat a team ranked above us in a competitive game?...

[ArdeeBhoy]

Slovakia, 2007.
Or Fr*nce over 90 mins in '09...

[Charlie Darwin]

Slovakia, 2007.
Or Fr*nce over 90 mins in '09...

Slovakia were ranked below us in 2007 I'm fairly sure. The last time we beat a team ranked above us in a competitive game was France in 2001, or France in 2009 if that counts.

[Irwin3]

Slovakia were ranked below us in 2007 I'm fairly sure. The last time we beat a team ranked above us in a competitive game was France in 2001, or France in 2009 if that counts.

Slovakia were both ranked and seeded above us when we beat them in 2007. I believe the France result goes down as a draw in the record books.

[Charlie Darwin]

Slovakia were both ranked and seeded above us when we beat them in 2007. I believe the France result goes down as a draw in the record books.

Having done my research, they were indeed seeded above us! Not sure if they were ranked above us at the time of the game but I'm inclined to think you're right on that too.

[Fixer82]

Slovakia were ranked below us in 2007 I'm fairly sure. The last time we beat a team ranked above us in a competitive game was France in 2001, or France in 2009 if that counts.

don't remember that?

[Charlie Darwin]

Holland even

[Fixer82]

Holland even

ah right.
yeah that was our last proper win. I never really count France as i always think of it as a draw but I guess over 90 minutes it was a win

[Closed Account 2]

I saw the link posted but haven't had a chance to look at it (assume it's a few pages back?). However I'll believe it when I see it. The women's game is different for obvious reasons. For UEFA to make leagues of this nature happen it would take buy-in from hundreds of clubs, junior clubs, FA representatives and getting on to millions of fans. It's just not realistic.?

Legally is the women's game that different. If UEFA allow merged leagues for women, it would be legally difficult to ban them for men if enough of the clubs want it, to a degree a precident has been set.

Individual FAs would have kittens at the prospect of their autonomy being threatened, not to mention having to split places in Europe. How could CSKA, Zenit and Spartak feel about having to compete with Shakhtar for Champions League places. Never mind a club like Dynamo Kiev, a powerful dynasty in the Ukraine who - if it happened tomorrow - would be blown out of the water in such an arrangement.

At the moment both Russia and Ukraine have 1 CL group entrant and 1 CL playoff entrant. If a combined league had a slightly higher coefficient, and it seems inevitable it would, there would (like Portugal and France) be two automatic group stage teams and one playoff team. If it had a much higher coefficient it could even have 3 automatic and 1 play off place, although I have my doubts it would get this strong and overtake 1 of England, Germany or Spain. I don't see the number of CL teams being that much of an issue. The chairmen interested in the combined league are also trying to negotiate staggered CL qualification. So for the first 2-3 seasons the current status (top Russian team to group stage, second Russian team to play-off; and top Ukrainian team to group stage, second Ukrainian team to play-off) persists even if the top 10 teams are Russian, as this would give the top teams time to adapt. You mention Dynamo Kiev and say, rather dramatically, that they would be blown out of the water in a combined league. But, to continue your aquatic metaphor, they are sinking anyway, in the last 7 years they've only won it twice, every other year it's been Shakhtar, furthermore, in the last 5 years they've missed out on CL group stage football three times. Tellingly last year they finished third not only behind Shakhtar but also Metalist, so they didnt even make the CL qualifiers but are instead just in the EL. Already with 9 games gone this season they are 9 points off the top (Metalist) and down in 6th place.

If a combined league happened, a stuttering Dynamo would be in a better position financially - not only would they get more income from better league sponsorship (a combined Russian and Ukrainian league would have much more pulling power than Ukraine on it's own), but they would also take more in terms of gate receipts from the higher profile matches (Zenit, CSKA, Dinamo Moscow, Lokomotiv) which would probably replace less attended Ukrainian teams (Zaporizhya, Lutsk and Uzghorod)

Big clubs in small ponds like to keep it that way.

Does that not depend on the nature of the "pond" they might move to. Let's take Celtic as an example, yes in the current SPL they would want to biggest team and would be very worried if say (somehow) Aberdeen or one of the Edinburgh clubs challenged them. But I'm fairly certain Celtic would jump at the chance to join the English Premier League (maybe even the Championship) from their point of view I think they would prefer to be a medium fish in a much larger pond. In any case the high profile Russian and Ukrainian clubs have already participated in a joint tournament this summer, Zenit, Spartak, Shakhtar and Dinamo all played in the United Tornament this summer, they all fielded generally their strongest teams and the tournament was fairly well attended - the Ukrainian home matches all had over 20,000 fans and the last match Dinamo vs Zenit had over 50000. The Russian clubs home matches looked, at face value, to be poorly attended but that is because Zenit moved their home matches to Kiev (stadium being rebuilt) and Spartak had to play at Torpedo's stadium (13,000 seater) due to the Luzhniki having the Summer Athletics. Yes it's a pre-season tournament, but it's telling that the clubs took it very seriously (say compared to a Premier League club going to the far East and putting out a reserve team) and it was well attended by domestic fans despite competitive league football taking place a few weeks later.

A massive indictment? On what planet do clubs with an average of less than 2,000 fans, crumbling stadia and budgets cut to the bone get to the group stages of the Champions League?

Here's a list of clubs who have made it to the CL group stage, and have similar domestic attendances to the top 2-3 teams in the LoI.

Club --- Country --- Avg att last year
MSK Zelina --- Slovakia --- 2022
Kosice --- Slovakia --- 2358
Unirea --- Romania --- 2,706
Cork City --- Ireland --- 2,764
Maribor --- Slovenia --- 2833
Sligo --- Ireland --- 3007
Shamrock --- Ireland --- 3022
Dinamo Zagreb --- Croatia --- 3063

Obviously I've included Shamrock Rovers, Sligo and Cork in the list even though they havent made the CL groups to give you an indication of where LoI teams are in terms of attendance. Attendances are from here (http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/). There is also Artmedia Petrzalka who qaulified for the group stage almost a decade ago, at the time their stadium (now demolished had a capacity of 7000 and it seems their domestic average attendance was around 3000). Beyond this there is a whole raft of teams who have an average domestic attendance of considerably less than 10,000 yet have still made the CL group stage. Debrecen, HJK Helsinki, Otelul Galati, Cluj, Widzew Lodz, Thun, Ant Famagusta, Levski Sofia, Norsjelland, Ferencvaros, Lierse, Aalborg, Salzburg, Hapoel Tel Aviv, Molde, - that (with the previously mentioned teams) is around 20 teams and how many of those are so called "sugar daddy" clubs? There is only one club in there (HJK) who you would say are usual cast iron favourites to win their league.

Those looking at drastic measures need to chill it down a bit. It's obvious Irish football needs a reform - top to bottom - but instead of going through the decades-in-the-making legal equivalent of shoving a camel through the needle's eye by forming a joint North Atlantic Football Extravaganza, how about we focus on just investing more time in our domestic game and encouraging players to stay local where good coaching and resources are being developed?

Surely we try plans A and B before going nuclear?

It's been 20-30 years of dismal performances by LoI club sides in Europe, look down the list of European countries by population and we are the largest (population) that has yet to have CL group football, aside from Kazakhstan (who have only been in UEFA since 2002/3). At least other countries who havent had CL group stage football have valid reasons. Bosnia, Macedonia have only fielded teams in UEFA competitions for half that time. Others have populations much smaller than Ireland, Estonia and Iceland have populations around a third and less than a tenth of Ireland, yet ironically both the Icelandic and the Estonian CL clubs were nearer to making the group stage than Sligo, both got a round further and both went out to eventual group stage teams (Viktoria Plzen and Austria Vienna). Sligo lost to Molde, who were then eliminated by Legia, who themselves were eliminated by Steaua Bucharest. What are plans A and B? And how long are we meant to eek along those paths for? Another 20-30 years ? I think it's time to look at other more drastic options, be it a more county/province based approach (say like GAA or Rugby) or going for some sort of combined league.

[ped_ped]

I think it's time to look at other more drastic options, be it a more county/province based approach (say like GAA or Rugby) or going for some sort of combined league.

Domestic football can act as a breeding ground for international talent, but that is not the main purpose of it.

A county/province style approach may get results, may provide better players and may achieve a lot of other, separate goals, but it would rip the heart out of Irish football. The international game is second to the club game in the grand scheme of things. Manchester United, Liverpool and Chelsea are more important than the English National Team.

International football is secondary, and if 20 Irish clubs need to be moved, reformed or disbanded to create a better product or a stronger national team, then I'm watching low level domestic football and not qualifying for tournaments. It beats selling out soul.

[paul_oshea]

Thats a perverse way of thinking, because surely the pinnacle should be the highest you can go, so you have building blocks to reach that level, underage leagues, schoolboy, league sides, international etc. Even if you think the international is secondary, then you should have a league strong enough to compete at a level similar to others(leagues) based on the input factors, that will directly and indirectly have a knock on effect to the international team.

I'm sure if you asked any LOI player what their dream is, im sure its to play for Ireland.

[Charlie Darwin]

International football is a step above but that doesn't mean all the levels below are malleable and fundamentally discardable, which is what the superclub idea basically means. Being an Ireland fan doesn't mean a Shamrock Rovers or Limerick supporter should have to sacrifice their team for the greater good. Football doesn't work like that, and thank christ it doesn't.

[osarusan]

I've said this before: a strong national side should be a by-product of the domestic league, not the aim of it.

The people who want to tear the league up, disband and then mix and match different clubs together based on the idea that the resulting league will be better for the national team, can simply **** off.

[Closed Account 2]

Thats a perverse way of thinking, because surely the pinnacle should be the highest you can go, so you have building blocks to reach that level, underage leagues, schoolboy, league sides, international etc. Even if you think the international is secondary, then you should have a league strong enough to compete at a level similar to others(leagues) based on the input factors, that will directly and indirectly have a knock on effect to the international team.

I'm sure if you asked any LOI player what their dream is, im sure its to play for Ireland.

Exactly. Similarly would any LoI player not harbour ambitions to play Champions League fixtures? Taking the Irish national team out of the equation, why wouldnt LoI players want to play Champions League football? (with their LoI club) Look at the Viktoria Plzen players, their ceiling wasnt playing away at Sigma Olomuc or Slovan Liberec, those players played (or will play) Milan, Barca, Bayern, Man Cityin the CL. They finished above Atletico and beat Napoli in Europea League knockouts. Why can't LoI players aim for this? Shouldnt possibilities of getting them out of the current UEFA rut be explored.

I think anything which improves the level of Irish football, and the level at which Irish players can compete, should be seriously considered, even if it means tweaking the club landscape and a better geographic distribution of clubs. It's not necessarily a question of closing and moving dozens of clubs, it's more ensuring that top-level football in Ireland is spread all across Ireland. Look at Galway for example. Galway United imploded a few years ago, effectivly the team in the 4th largest city in the country was shut down. To a degree you can say Mervue and Salthill serve Galway now (although as second tier teams) but while these teams had strong youth football traditions the emergence of them into the LoI structure only happend in the last few years. Wouldn't it be better if there was a Galway club (or maybe two clubs) that served the wider area (say the county of Galway)? Something like Galway United but more stable say backed by the county or FAI (admittedly hard in the current financial climate). The same thing could be said of Cork City when they nearly sank 4-5 years ago, there was a very real prospect of the second largest city not having a viable league team just at the time when Cobh Ramblers were on the rocks.

[Closed Account 2]

I've said this before: a strong national side should be a by-product of the domestic league, not the aim of it.

The people who want to tear the league up, disband and then mix and match different clubs together based on the idea that the resulting league will be better for the national team, can simply **** off.

Take the national team out of the picture. What about making the league stronger internationally? What about Irish clubs (and their players) being able to compete viably in UEFA competitions?

[Charlie Darwin]

Exactly. Similarly would any LoI player not harbour ambitions to play Champions League fixtures? Taking the Irish national team out of the equation, why wouldnt LoI players want to play Champions League football? (with their LoI club) Look at the Viktoria Plzen players, their ceiling wasnt playing away at Sigma Olomuc or Slovan Liberec, those players played (or will play) Milan, Barca, Bayern, Man Cityin the CL. They finished above Atletico and beat Napoli in Europea League knockouts. Why can't LoI players aim for this? Shouldnt possibilities of getting them out of the current UEFA rut be explored.

I think anything which improves the level of Irish football, and the level at which Irish players can compete, should be seriously considered, even if it means tweaking the club landscape and a better geographic distribution of clubs. It's not necessarily a question of closing and moving dozens of clubs, it's more ensuring that top-level football in Ireland is spread all across Ireland. Look at Galway for example. Galway United imploded a few years ago, effectivly the team in the 4th largest city in the country was shut down. To a degree you can say Mervue and Salthill serve Galway now (although as second tier teams) but while these teams had strong youth football traditions the emergence of them into the LoI structure only happend in the last few years. Wouldn't it be better if there was a Galway club (or maybe two clubs) that served the wider area (say the county of Galway)? Something like Galway United but more stable say backed by the county or FAI (admittedly hard in the current financial climate). The same thing could be said of Cork City when they nearly sank 4-5 years ago, there was a very real prospect of the second largest city not having a viable league team just at the time when Cobh Ramblers were on the rocks.

Who's stopping them, though? If somebody wants to create a pan-Galway team and attract 5,000 fans they're fully entitled to. If you want to make a team called Connacht, go nuts. Why on earth people seem to think this requires mergers and new franchises is beyond me.

[osarusan]

Take the national team out of the picture. What about making the league stronger internationally? What about Irish clubs (and their players) being able to compete viably in UEFA competitions?

What about it? Do you think that clubs don't want to be in that position?

A stronger LOI? Yes please. Munster FC in a 'celtic league'? No thanks.

[Stuttgart88]

If the English and French get their way, our rugby superclubs could be goosed. Any cross border league arrangement in football would very likely face the same risks. I can't see any "Atlantic League" countries giving a hoot about the Irish. Only if an Irish club or franchise could bring huge crowds and TV money into the pot would any other country be interested. If rugby's European champion contenders can be kicked to touch by clubs with a bigger TV market Lord knows what fate would wait an Irish football club competing with Dutch, Belgian and Portuguese clubs.

I also think the scale of the inequality and absolute wealth of the big clubs needs to be assessed. You could 'merge' NI, Welsh, Scottish and Irish leagues, or even create a Celtic League of big city / regional franchises and the TV audience would still only be a small fraction of the size required to sustain a markedly better professional product, especially if the Old Firm headed south. If they didn't, the chances of any other "club" reaching Europe wouldn't be improved.

What other aggregations of countries likely to be bothered to include Ireland could create a TV market worth the risk?

The league is what it is. Of course it can become better. If osarusan is allowed to repeat himself, then so will I. We need a properly joined up game owned by an FAI able to control or ideally remove the various self interested factions. A joined up pyramid with an ethos of best practice coaching running through its veins would improve all levels of our game. If the bottom is better, the middle will be better. If the middle is connected to the top, the top will be better. If the top of the domestic game is better and all levels of the game are producing better players, the national teams will be better.

I think regionalising the Europa League is worth considering, giving guaranteed cross border football and a share of European wide TV and commercial revenue to peripheral countries. It'd be a difficult project to configure but I think the concept is valid. There could maybe be 8 European regions, each with a degree of local derby interest, with the regional winners going into a QFknock out round. Each region could have more than one group if its a big region. The number of games required might be an issue, requiring a shorter domestic season. I expect Charlie to come on and deconstruct the idea into a pile of horse manure but I think it has merit

[Closed Account 2]

Who's stopping them, though? If somebody wants to create a pan-Galway team and attract 5,000 fans they're fully entitled to. If you want to make a team called Connacht, go nuts. Why on earth people seem to think this requires mergers and new franchises is beyond me.

But isnt part of the sucess of the GAA compared with LoI (in terms of fanbase) the county vs county nature of the all-ireland competitions. Ditto Rugby and the provinces. It's all very well saying that anyone can set up a single county team, ignoring the trials and tribulations of getting into the LoI structure, but a county team (or province team) on it's own isn't going to be viable. If Kerry (county hurling team) played a series of matches against teams like St Martins (in Wexford) or Thurles Sarsfields you couldnt imagine it would be a massive draw. Similarly if Munster (rugby) played matches against Clontarf or Belfast Harlequins (even if they were of the same ability as Munster) it's not like for like, it doesnt have the same draw as Munster vs Ulster.