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Thread: Discussion on a United or re-partitioned Ireland

  1. #321
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    Cue meltdown from GR & his ilk.

    And Danny, you are wasted on here, you really are.
    Republicanism is calling out literally to replace its old, less 'sophisticated' guard...
    You should be standing for The Dail, or even in the Gerry Fitts Parliament...
    Not sure how well you'd communicate this level of knowledge or detail, but you could educate so many people, on both sides of the fence!

  2. #322
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    So, I see Foster will attend the funeral, after all: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-39356365

    It's the right decision, but it's a pity she either had to genuinely mull over it or had to give the impression of indecision so as to reassure DUP hardliners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
    And Danny, you are wasted on here, you really are.
    Republicanism is calling out literally to replace its old, less 'sophisticated' guard...
    You should be standing for The Dail, or even in the Gerry Fitts Parliament...
    Not sure how well you'd communicate this level of knowledge or detail, but you could educate so many people, on both sides of the fence!
    Heh, thanks, Wolfie. I appreciate your words and I've considered getting into politics, but I'm just not sure I could toe a party line.

  3. #323
    First Team Gather round's Avatar
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    Thanks to Gastric and BacksToThe Wall for the welcome above, returned in kind

    I'll respond/ meltdown later but in the meantime here are some possible Indy role models for Danny's foray into politics:




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  5. #324
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    .....
    Last edited by Gather round; 23/03/2017 at 10:40 AM.

  6. #325
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    And of course Jonny Bell (here just about to do something inappropriate on the Nolan show:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post

    I'll respond/ meltdown later but in the meantime here are some possible Indy role models for Danny's foray into politics
    Please Don't.
    They were just being 'polite', humouring you!!

  8. #327
    Seasoned Pro backstothewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
    Please Don't.
    They were just being 'polite', humouring you!!
    https://youtu.be/NfbQDW2HvrY
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  9. #328
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    More discussion in the "Paper of Record"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Newton Emerson
    There is a hint of the 1970s about the Republic’s new debate on a united Ireland – specifically the years from 1974, when loyalism and unionism came together to wreck experiments in powersharing with a cross-Border dimension, then scratched their heads over what to do next.
    All sorts of notions were given serious consideration, from reuniting ancient Ulster to doomsday scenarios of repartition. But the main theme to emerge was an independent Northern Ireland, in forms ranging from dominion status to a unilateral declaration of independence (what today would be called a hard Nirexit.)
    For a brief moment in 1975 this pan-unionist movement captured the ballot box and the street. But it could not be sustained, because the unionist population found all these ideas implausible, undesirable or ridiculous.
    Now it is the South’s turn for constitutional over-creativity. An independent Northern Ireland has been mentioned, as has joint authority, but the main theme to emerge is of Northern Ireland surviving in some sort of federal or quasi-federal united Ireland.
    Gerry Adams has said this could be transitional or a permanent arrangement. Micheál Martin says it would be “a reverse to where we are now”, with London and Dublin swapping roles.
    Autonomous region
    It is not unusual for a country to have one special autonomous region, although calling it a federation might be rather grand. What makes the idea of Northern Ireland’s continued existence implausible is that, as a region, it would have no purpose.
    A federal Ireland is generally proposed as a concession to unionists, but as it can only come about through unionists being outvoted in the North, what autonomy would they have?


    No consideration is being given to how Northern nationalists might feel, having finally reached the promised land only to find themselves still stuck in a regional stalemate. Presumably they would just walk away from Stormont, as Sinn Féin has already done. What then?
    Neither community has been asked for their view – at least not since the mid-1980s, when Adams ditched Sinn Féin’s policy for a four-province federation because it had no electoral appeal.
    If nobody in the North really wants a federal Ireland, its attraction to the South is clearly the preservation of a cordon sanitaire around a lunatic asylum.
    Loyalist violence
    Concerns have been raised about the threat of loyalist violence, although Southerners should note this is barely an issue for Northern nationalists. Sinn Féin has persuaded its supporters that Britain directed every act of loyalist violence throughout the Troubles, so an end to British rule means no more loyalism – all rather convenient, to put it mildly.
    A better reason for optimism is the example of the 1970s, when loyalists considered then abandoned every scenario they could think of for resisting Irish unity by force – and that was when they were at their strongest, with tacit support from the unionist electorate.
    All loyalists do now is wreck their own neighbourhoods and shoot each other, while unionism looks the other way. Their likeliest future in a united Ireland mirrors Dublin’s criminal gangs.
    Southerners need to accept that if unity happens, the asylum wall comes down. Northern Ireland was created to encompass a British majority inside the UK. This is no more of a “sectarian gerrymander” than any nation drawing a border around itself.
    Nevertheless, if the majority evaporates, the Border becomes unsustainable. Nationalists will want it gone and unionists will see no point to it. The Northern Ireland identity is associated with centrist voters, and although they will be the decisive demographic in a Border poll, there are not numerous enough for their identity to prevail.
    The likeliest outcome of this will be a unitary state, with a national minority that looks to the neighbouring state – a common scenario across the world. In the proportions applicable to a united Ireland, which would have a 15 per cent British minority, a standard political system emerges: the bulk of the population votes along conventional left-right lines, while the minority elects a purely ethnic party or bloc and hopes to hold the balance of power.
    Unless Ireland wants to deal with the DUP forever, one detail that might be considered is a Scottish-style top-up list in elections, which should encourage unionists to vote for multiple parties. Chances are all these parties would still be unionist, however, and at some point they will be in a position to make demands.
    Last December, in a snap election, Macedonia’s conservative and social democrat parties won 51 and 49 seats respectively. Neither can form a government without the Albanian ethnic bloc, whose three parties represent a 20 per cent national minority.
    The Albanian price for coalition is nationwide recognition of their language - an argument Northern Ireland will find familiar.
    The social democrats have agreed, so the conservatives have brought protesters onto the streets, while the ex-conservative president has refused to summon a government, causing a constitutional crisis.
    This is the test Irish unity presents: when the Macedonian moment arrives, will the British minority get its way?
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/u...oted-1.3020376
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  11. #329
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    It's the right decision, but it's a pity she either had to genuinely mull over it or had to give the impression of indecision so as to reassure DUP hardliners.
    Politically she had no option really, especially with people like Blair going too.

    Personally, given the IRA shot and wounded her father, and bombed a schoolbus while she was on it, I can see why it isn't something that appeals to her, quite apart from what DUP hardliners might think.

    But a large part of politics is doing stuff and meeting people you'd much rather not.

  12. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by osarusan View Post
    Politically she had no option really, especially with people like Blair going too
    Agreed. I don't like reducing everything to soundbite, but you feel the hand of history on Arlene's shoulders. Or somesuch shi*te

    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
    You can't change prejudiced mindsets and corresponding senses of grievance overnight
    You can expect those changes in rather less than 25 years...

    Besides, unionism later rejected the possibility of power-sharing. The statelet's infrastructure was effectively discriminatory up until the Good Friday Agreement was agreed and safeguards against potential discrimination became enshrined in law
    Whataboutery. The lack of forced coalition local government doesn't justify a generation-long shooting war.

    Sadly, the deep-rooted hostility of unreconstructed unionism towards Irish nationalism remains even today
    Agreed. That's why nationalism needs to look to the future and be imaginative.

    Addressing housing and electoral grievances didn't make life rosy for nationalists all of a sudden
    I know. Who said otherwise? Enduring poverty etc. doesn't justify a generation-long shooting war etc.

    I'm not blaming nationalism alone, just judging it (given the standards of the time) by the same low standards as the unionists and the Brits. None of them were an advert for liberal democracy.

    It's of little surprise that only [in the late 90s] did armed resistance cease
    Lack of inclusivity, validity, parity and other largely vague abstracts doesn't justify a generation-long shooting war. We probably won't agree on this...

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    So essentially you're saying nothing new.
    Quelle surprise.

  14. #332
    Seasoned Pro backstothewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    Lack of inclusivity, validity, parity and other largely vague abstracts doesn't justify a generation-long shooting war. We probably won't agree on this...
    The problems in 1960s NI weren't vague or abstract. They were pronounced and intolerable.

    Nationalism didn't start with the intention of violence. There were 40 years when nationalists did nothing about the conditions there were living in. Despite those conditions the border campaign got no support and fizzled out, and in 1962 the IRA had to abandon military operations.

    Another 5 years passed before the NICRA was set up by Nationalists and Unionists, and following the example of Dr. King began using exclusively peaceful and democratic means to try to bring change. The old republicans from the War of Independence days were reduced to muttering in the corners of pubs that these young fools are living in a dream world, that the Unionist establishment would never give in to their (very reasonable) demands, that if this place was to have any change it would have to be forced at the business end of a rifle. And how right they were.

    NICRA went on their marches, they brought Ulster to the crossroads, and they got their heads stoved in by the RUC and B Specials. Peaceful protest was met at every turn with violence from the state forces. By 1969, with entire nationalist districts defenceless against attacks from mobs of loyalists, B Specials and RUC, with refugees streaming over the border, with the NICRA being met with batons and water cannon everywhere they went, with "I Ran Away" being painted on the gable ends of houses, and with the old lads in the corners of the pubs being proven entirely correct, turning to violence was easily justified.

    Just as in South Africa, just as in any number of places before that, just as in Palestine today, and just, unfortunately, as in many places yet to come, communities have a right to defend themselves. Hackneyed platitudes about violence never being the answer to any problem only work until a mob is preparing to burn your house down. Or until someone is ploughing a car through pedestrians on a bridge. Or until you are being lined up to be shot by Serbian soldiers. For some problems violence is an answer. For others it is the only answer.

    And of course awful things happened on all sides, but people like Martin McGuinness picked up the gun at a time when the circumstances he was living in made it an answer to a problem which peaceful action had failed to resolve. Thankfully once those circumstances could reasonably hope to be changed we had people like McGuinness to convince others to put it back down again.
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  16. #333
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    A very moving day in Derry today. I've never before seen the Bogside so thronged with people. There were tricolours draped from house windows throughout the area. It was probably the closest thing that Derry has ever had to a state funeral.


    Looking up Westland Street from the Bogside and towards the approaching funeral cortège. The famous Bogside Inn is to the left and the Bogside Artists' Annette McGavigan mural - 'The Death of Innocence' - is on the right. The Bloody Sunday commemorative mural is also visible at an angle.


    The cortège approaches the junction at Free Derry Corner with the 'Battle of the Bogside Petrol Bomber' mural in the background.


    The procession passes the back of Free Derry Corner (on the left), which has a tricolour flying from it at half-mast. A giant screen, on which the funeral procession and ceremony were broadcast live to the crowd, was erected on the front-side of Free Derry Corner.

    And yet there wasn't a PSNI officer in sight. There was probably a concern that such a presence would provoke more trouble than it might possibly prevent. Anyhow, the whole procession was marshalled entirely by volunteers. In fact, the only police presence I saw in the city all day were uniformed gardaí on marked motorbikes waiting outside the City Hotel and Guildhall to escort southern dignitaries in black D-reg SUVs with tinted-glass windows. Rather extraordinary to see active gardaí on duty north of the border. I had to take two looks to be sure my eyes weren't deceiving me. Maybe unity is closer than we think! ;-D

    Quote Originally Posted by osarusan View Post
    Politically she had no option really, especially with people like Blair going too.

    Personally, given the IRA shot and wounded her father, and bombed a schoolbus while she was on it, I can see why it isn't something that appeals to her, quite apart from what DUP hardliners might think.

    But a large part of politics is doing stuff and meeting people you'd much rather not.
    Blair didn't actually attend in the end and had apparently never planned to: http://www.derryjournal.com/news/ton...ness-1-7881106

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rainey
    Former British prime minister Tony Blair will definitely not be attending the funeral of the Sinn Fein leader he considers vital to realising one of his own “greatest achievements”.

    A number of media reports have suggested the ex-Labour leader would be in Derry today to pay his respects to Martin McGuinness – the pair having worked closely during the peace process and negotiations leading to the Good Friday Agreement.

    However, a spokeswoman for Mr Blair said those reports were compiled “without asking us first whether he would be”.

    The spokeswoman said Mr Blair’s staff would have been happy to clarify that he would not be attending if requested to do so, and said that media outlets had “erroneously reported that he would be attending without bothering to check the facts first”.
    Foster's eventual decision to attend was warmly welcomed, and indeed applauded, by those inside the church (I didn't make it inside myself given the fact the church and grounds were enveloped by literally thousands of people) and I think she does deserve credit on account of her own past experiences. Better to decide to go late than to never go at all. It was a progressive gesture and thousands of people - including myself - will have acknowledged and appreciated it as such.

  17. #334
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    ...doesn't justify a generation-long shooting war.
    I've not even entered into the realm of discussing or evaluating justifications. I've been dealing with understanding why and discussing cause and effect.

  18. #335
    Seasoned Pro backstothewall's Avatar
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    Danny. It was obviously a massive crowd (some lunatic on the bbc today said the biggest in Ireland since Dev - odd how the BBC can't remember any funerals from the 1980s). But was your impression that it mainly locals on the streets or was it people from all over?
    Last edited by backstothewall; 24/03/2017 at 12:58 AM.
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  19. #336
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by backstothewall View Post
    Danny. It was obviously a massive crowd (some lunatic on the bbc today said the biggest in Ireland since Dev - odd how the BBC can't remember any funerals from the 1980s). But was your impression that it mainly locals on the streets or was it people from all over?
    I got the impression - simply from hearing accents and observing local school uniforms and Derry City scarves - that most of those lining the streets along the route in front of the cortège were locals. I would imagine most people who came from elsewhere initially congregated at the McGuinness family home on Westland Avenue and followed the carrying of the coffin from there.

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    Seasoned Pro backstothewall's Avatar
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    Mark Durkan will be having sleepless nights about Theresa May going for an election if that's the case
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  21. #338
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    In a weird way, I think this was my favourite Martin moment in recent times: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-norther...itics-34787029

    Check out the video within the link for a reminder if you get a chance. It was a humiliating test of character launched at him like a grenade by a bigoted, myopic, coat-trailing nincompoop - the TUV's Sammy Morrison - who decided to act contrary to prior-agreed protocol by singing 'God Save the Queen' as a weapon to embarrass the nationalist/republican attendees at what was supposed to be an inclusive, cross-community Remembrance Day event that nationalists and republicans had agreed to attend for the first time in Stormont as a gesture of reconciliation and good will. Such events are already controversial enough as it is within the nationalist/republican community for obvious reasons, but Martin came through the whole affair with such admirable grace, composure and dignity as the other British-identifying attendees around him got up and stood for the impromptu rendition of their anthem.

    When I first saw the footage, I felt for him, my blood boiled for him, I shed a tear for him - why did he have to put up with that? - and I respected him for his poise and leadership.

  22. #339
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    I have never seen anything like it. Whatever about a State funeral for someone. But it was absolutely remarkable scenes.
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  23. #340
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    I just caught this week's Question Time from Bangor in Wales and, to my surprise, it featured a question (at 28m45s) relating to Irish affairs. This is a very rare occurrence, but it seems the death of Martin McGuinness was deemed a significant enough political event to have the panel cast their attention and thoughts westward for a couple of minutes.

    Anyway, an audience member asked: "Is it fair to families of victims murdered by Martin McGuinness and the IRA to heap so much praise on him?"

    What followed was ten minutes of platitudes and ignorance. Not one panellist mentioned the conditions which led to the IRA emerging or to the circumstances that led to Martin McGuinness joining the IRA. In fact, one panellist - Hugo Rifkind - actually went as far as claiming that "Martin McGuinness brought war to Northern Ireland"...

    Once again, it was rather frustrating that that was the level of debate being beamed out to millions throughout the UK by the BBC under the guise of expert and informed political opinion. At the same time though, I suppose it is another reminder of just how far removed the minds of those in Britain are from Ireland and Irish affairs. They reside in a different political universe.

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