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Thread: Discussion on a United or re-partitioned Ireland

  1. #481
    Seasoned Pro backstothewall's Avatar
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    I once read a piece by Seamus Mallon in which he said that the British Establishment reached a consensus back in the 1970s to get out of Ireland. He then rather cryptically explained that he was referring to the establishment, as opposed to the political establishment.

    Partition was as much a mistake for the British as it was for the Irish. It was an embarrassment when criticising the Russians and Chinese for their human rights abuses during the cold war. It still manages to cause tension in the relationship with the United States. The value of the strategic position it offered evaporated within a few years of partition. Constitutionally neutral Ireland is about as inert a neighbour any country could hope to have, and our position within the EU will offer a de facto voice for British interests within the EU, as more often than not whatever is in our interest is in theirs also.

    Brexit obviously going to be a disaster for the British but perhaps getting rid of Ulster is being looked at as something of a silver lining among those people who run the country.
    Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.

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  3. #482
    Capped Player nigel-harps1954's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by backstothewall View Post
    Brexit obviously going to be a disaster for the British but perhaps getting rid of Ulster is being looked at as something of a silver lining among those people who run the country.
    Careful where you go with that.
    https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.

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    Seasoned Pro backstothewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr A View Post
    No way I'd ever support Donegal being thrown in with the loonies across the border.
    Quote Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954 View Post
    Careful where you go with that.
    Why don't you guys have a chat and decide if you want to be thrown in with us loonies or not. I can't keep up!
    Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.

  5. #484
    Seasoned Pro backstothewall's Avatar
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    Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.

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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by backstothewall View Post
    I once read a piece by Seamus Mallon in which he said that the British Establishment reached a consensus back in the 1970s to get out of Ireland. He then rather cryptically explained that he was referring to the establishment, as opposed to the political establishment.
    Was he referring to the economic establishment (i.e. those who control capital) or who? I get the impression that the British media establishment aren't quite on board with the idea of cutting the north adrift just yet or they'd surely be making a bigger deal out of the annual subvention (which is, of course, life-support for a failed project and one if the costs of the crippling decision to partition Ireland; not necessarily the price of unity, as is often claimed by unity-sceptics), although the recent rumblings and negative publicity in the English media over the Tory-DUP bung might be a sign of changing attitudes across the water and of more uncertain times ahead for political unionism as a whole here.

    I think things are looking ominous for political unionism in the long run. Brexit will be its death-knell, which is sort of ironic and tragicomical given the DUP's reckless devotion to it. Fintan O'Toole put it brilliantly in a previous article of his when he wrote:

    "And then the DUP went to the big Brexit roulette and put all its chips on red, white and blue. The only way to acquit the party on the charge of idiocy is to find it guilty of an enormous bluff. It thought it could indulge itself in some ultra-British flag-waving but with no real-world consequences. It would back Brexit and be secretly delighted when it lost.

    The gambit was especially reckless for a party for whom the union is its whole raison d’être. The English nationalists who drove Brexit don’t really care about the union – under the rhetorical covers, they will ditch Northern Ireland and Scotland if need be. They were playing with loose change. The DUP was playing with the deeds to its house."

    Quote Originally Posted by backstothewall View Post
    That Independent article's sub-title states:

    "Exclusive: The move, which would involve customs checks taking place at ports on the Irish sea, has the support of all major political groups."

    More British media DUP-bashing; the party's status humiliatingly downgraded now to minnow level.

  7. #486
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    A promising LucidTalk poll for Irish unity down the line: https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/10/25...l-irish-unity/

    Quote Originally Posted by David McCann
    The poll found that more than 60% of respondents thought a poll should be held within the next 10 years.

    One of the more interesting findings was that 56% of the 18-44 year old respondents said they would vote Yes in a potential referendum.

    Overall around 55% of respondents favour Northern Ireland staying within the UK.
    More on it here: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-36261684.html

  8. #487
    Seasoned Pro backstothewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    A promising LucidTalk poll for Irish unity down the line: https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/10/25...l-irish-unity/



    More on it here: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-36261684.html
    Much more realistic figures than the nonsense published in the NI Life & Times survey down the years.
    Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.

  9. #488
    First Team Gather round's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by backstothewall View Post
    Much more realistic figures than the nonsense published in the NI Life & Times survey down the years
    Why are the other recent surveys nonsense? Apart from you not agreeing with them obviously...

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    Seasoned Pro backstothewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    Why are the other recent surveys nonsense? Apart from you not agreeing with them obviously...
    That's a fair question, but there is a good answer.

    Because the methodology they use is flawed. The data is gathered using face to face public interviews, which are notoriously unreliable. Many people lie because they are being asked about these things in public and want to seem moderate. Not just in NI. It's a phenomenon anywhere such research is done.

    Lucidtalk use anonymous online surveys, and have a model which adjusts the raw data to produce representative cross-sample of society in the north. They have also established their credibility with extremely accurate predictions in recent elections and the Brexit referendum.
    Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by backstothewall View Post
    That's a fair question, but there is a good answer.

    Because the methodology they use is flawed. The data is gathered using face to face public interviews, which are notoriously unreliable. Many people lie because they are being asked about these things in public and want to seem moderate. Not just in NI. It's a phenomenon anywhere such research is done.

    Lucidtalk use anonymous online surveys, and have a model which adjusts the raw data to produce representative cross-sample of society in the north. They have also established their credibility with extremely accurate predictions in recent elections and the Brexit referendum
    Thanks, the general point is fair and tends to universal as you suggest. There should be a trend towards all pollsters upping their game and using the most reliable interview methods. Once that's established we should get a more accurate picture.

    Meanwhile, NI Nationalists come out as immoderate. Who'd have thought it?

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  13. #491
    Seasoned Pro backstothewall's Avatar
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    And NI unionists don't care about appearing to be moderate. Again, who would have thought it?

    The lucidtalk poll is a marked improvement in the data available but it won't mean much until it has been run over 5-10 tears and a trendline can be established.
    Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by backstothewall View Post
    And NI unionists don't care about appearing to be moderate. Again, who would have thought it?
    Naughty

    DUP hack Christopher Stalford when interviewed recently about the situation in Catalonia made the very reasonable point that riot Police beating up old women at a polling station rather loses you credibility as a civilised country. CS is the same age as foot.ie stripling Danny Invincible (early 30s) but moderate views aside has the manner of many politicians twice his age...

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    Discussion continued from this thread:

    http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligib...s-Okay/page372

    Quote Originally Posted by Straightstory
    There's a nasty sectarianism evident in this thread
    I wouldn't go that far, though admittedly the bantz gets a bit edgy sometimes

    Edit: what Bonnie and BttW said basically

    Quote Originally Posted by Fixer82
    I wish NI well and...I believe most ROI fans are of a similar disposition
    Ta. I accept that the rivalry is a bit skewed. Many of our fans have become more hostile in recent years. Personally, I'm happy to wish you well tomorrow: my preference an exciting score-draw.

    Fixer, have another look at my post #7413 which you quoted. I didn't say no-one in the Falls Road or beyond spoke Irish. I'm in town regularly and honestly can't remember the last time I heard a conversation in the language in the street. Slightly less anecdotally, I don't see commerce responding to a demand for Irish much beyond signs for Cead Mille Failte in Gaelic script. I accept there's relative growth but in absolute terms it's insignificant.

    For what it's worth I regularly criticise NI and its institutions, including on here. I've never supported anything regal nor monarchic. I support an Irish Language Act (again recorded here), I just don't see it as important enough to justify paralysing local government as I said. So by all means defend your corner, but there's no need for cliched Shinner rhetoric. And I largely agree re Ulster Scots which is neither language nor dialect but English with a few regional words.

    Quote Originally Posted by BttW
    I'm not going to address the stuff about the Irish language etc as it's beyond even a tenuous connection to football
    They both have a connection if not to each other directly but to the real issue here, ie wider NI politics. We were getting along fine (sorry) agreeing about 95% of the narrow football issue as you said, then you chose to widen it so I responded in kind.

    I'm curious about this. What would nationalism accepting a compromise in this matter look like? If that would be us not grumbling about the flag being a sectarian relic of a disgraced regime then I think we would accept it
    Aye, that would be fine as I've always said. Your other point is a straw man if applied to me: I've no problem with you supporting the South, or Shane Duffy playing for them (my man of the match in both your last two games btw)

    The trouble you have is that FIFA is just about the biggest organisation in the world who recognise that flag as representing NI
    Well, they are pretty big and Worldwide. I don't see it as problematic as you do. We're a small region of a large country, almost no-one beyond Ireland is that bothered about which flag we use. We get to play international football largely through historical accident and hopefully will do for long yet.

    I'd say, and i believe you expressed a similar view above, is that you guys should want something new without any baggage for your own reasons
    I said I wanted a distinct anthem and would accept a different flag. But not quite similar, because I think whatever the new versions were they'd carry baggage- basically because many Nationalists would say they were unrepresentative.


    By grasping the nettle and enduring a little difficulty with a section of your fanbase in the short term you could put the issue to bed
    Disagree. As above the biggest problem isn't fans in the short-term (although they would gurn, inevitably) but never-to-be fans in the longer. I made this broad point to a guy on another forum recently- he suggested that, had the IFA moved to a new stadium at Long Kesh, Nationalist opinion would have welcomed and enthused about it. In reality they would have continued to criticise as before.

    I recognise it isn't fair to expect a football association to take the lead ahead of unionist leaders in society
    Up to a point. The IFA get enough deserved stick for being administratively incompetent, they aren't likely to invite more from Unionist hacks and journos. The annual poppy fetish is telling- they do what the Daily Mail tells them because the English FA does too. More cheerfully, in recent months there's been talk of England teams dropping GSTQ to use summat else. That might have a knock-on for us.
    Last edited by Gather round; 13/11/2017 at 4:06 PM.

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  17. #494
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    Personally, I'm happy to wish you well tomorrow: my preference an exciting score-draw.
    .
    Does not compute!

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    Come on, there's plenty of credit in drawing with a higher seed?

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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    We have slightly higher ambitions than drawing with mediocrity. As hard to believe as that might be.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

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    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Top class wumming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    We have slightly higher ambitions than drawing with mediocrity. As hard to believe as that might be
    Rest assured I understand and admire your ambition. I just don't want it achieved all at once. Think of it as deferred gratification or similar.

    Need a better contribution from the boy Eriksen mind.

    Charlie- if that's directed at me, you know I'd prefer Denmark to progress. I'd only be winding you up if I fibbed about it.

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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    Rest assured I understand and admire your ambition. I just don't want it achieved all at once. Think of it as deferred gratification or similar.

    Need a better contribution from the boy Eriksen mind.

    Charlie- if that's directed at me, you know I'd prefer Denmark to progress. I'd only be winding you up if I fibbed about it.
    Is it irony that this thread is now being derailed by off-topic comment about the match tomorrow night? :P
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

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    I've a question for our Northern brethren: what flag would you consider suitable in the event of a United Ireland?

    I'll assume the tricolour was off the table as an option.

    And for those of a Nationalist persuasion: would you concede the loss of the tricolour, for a United Ireland?
    Here they come! It’s the charge of the “Thanks” Brigade!

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