Beecher Networks - Web Development, Hosting & Domains
Page 1 of 14 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 272

Thread: The Flag Issue/Cheist an Bratach/The Fleg Prooblum

  1. #1
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,026
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,397
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,635
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts

    The Flag Issue/Cheist an Bratach/The Fleg Prooblum

    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  2. #2
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    Leading on from discussion in the eligibility thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    Raising the Tricolour would not solve anything.

    Loyalists would then denigrate my flag and see it as an "invasion".
    That's what I would suspect, despite the fact it would surely demonstrate a powerful show of mutual respect and would be "eroding" nobody's identity. Still, no flag at all (except on designated days) is what the Equality Commission recommended, as far as I'm aware.

    I would love to see the Tricolour flying up there but as it has no official status within the United Kingdom it's highly unlikely it would happen.

    In saying that Castlereagh BC fly the Ulster Banner and that has no offical status.
    It could happen if a democratic majority on the city council wished for it to be so. Wasn't there a council that flew the flag of the Orange Order relatively recently?

    Do Newry and Mourne or Moyle DC fly a Tricolour?
    They may well. Do they fly it alone?

    Why have there been no protests outside Stormont considering it only flies the flag on designated days as well?
    The two main unionist parties didn't need a stick with which to bash Alliance when a decision was being made on that then? Circumstances have since changed and policy is shown to be inconsistent.

  3. #3
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    Nice inclusive title, by the way, haha.

    Indeed, it was the unionist-dominated Castlereagh Borough Council that came under criticism for flying the flag of the Orange Order back in 1999: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_r...and/418617.stm

  4. #4
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,026
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,397
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,635
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    Nice inclusive title, by the way, haha.

    Indeed, it was the unionist-dominated Castlereagh Borough Council that came under criticism for flying the flag of the Orange Order back in 1999: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_r...and/418617.stm
    Reading your question I assumed it was Castlereagh. As I said they are the only Council that fly the Ulster Banner despite it not having any offical status.

    I think pragmastism rules when it comes to Nationalist councils. Newry and Mourne could easily fly the Tricolour and easily vote it through but I'm sure they view it as not worth the hassle as yet. The same could be said for Omagh, Strabane and Derry I suppose.

    But these are hypotheticals.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  5. #5
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    The SDLP would be expressly opposed to flying the tricolour alone. See 'Principles on the Flying Flags' on page 2: http://www.sdlp.ie/index.php/our_cam...icy_documents/ or https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...57700187,d.d2k

    It is submitted that, for example, the display of the Union flag is clearly identified with the Unionist community, with the Union with Britain and with those who would refer to themselves as British. To display the Union flag - or for that matter the Irish Tricolour alone - is contrary to the above principles of [parity and esteem and of the just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos and aspirations of both communities] and good practice. It should be noted that this argument is not outlined so as to suggest that in the treatment of issues of identity - flag, language etc - there should always be the same treatment at all times and in all ways. This may not be appropriate in political terms, feasible in financial terms or practical in real terms. This policy document elaborates on this perspective at paragraph (19).

    13) Moreover, to display the Union flag on government buildings only does not accord "just and equal treatment to the identity, ethos and aspirations" of the nationalist community. In addition, it is submitted that the display of the Union flag only on government buildings does not respect the right "to be accepted as Irish."

    ...

    The flying of a flag to which one community in Northern Ireland identifies, but another does not, is not sensitive. Nor does it promote mutual respect rather than division.

    ...

    17) There are four options for addressing this issue, which it has been argued are consistent with the Agreements:

    • flying of no flags on government buildings;
    • flying both the Union Flag and the Irish Tricolour;
    • creating new consensual symbols with which both unionists and nationalists could identify;
    • acknowledge that the principles of the Agreements may enable consideration of the display of either the Union flag and Irish Tricolour together or, where appropriate, display of the Union flag or Irish Tricolour only on restricted days and on restricted buildings by agreement.

    The SDLP is prepared to consider each of these options. It is recognised that the display of both flags would at this time be viewed by unionists as not sensitive to their concerns and that, also, in the current circumstances, it may be difficult to secure agreement on consensual symbols. However the SDLP would wish to explore further these options in order to satisfactorily resolve this issue.

    18) The SDLP remains committed to develop this issue in a creative and constructive manner. Therefore, and elaborating on 17(D) above, it has been argued that it is not necessarily valid that the same outcome is achieved on all aspects of the expression of different identities in Northern Ireland. Indeed, it is argued by some that parity of esteem could allow for different, as well as the same circumstances, to apply in relation to issues of identity. In this context, a situation could arise where there would be different, as well as same circumstances, applying to the display of the Union flag and to the Irish Tricolour. If different, as well as same circumstances, could apply to the display of flags, it would then be a matter of agreeing when and where they could be displayed, either together or separately, ensuring that there is no unreasonable differential between the occasions when, for example, the Union flag and Irish Tricolour would be displayed separately. It may help inform this issue, if this option was to be explored further.

    However, an environment to consider all options can best be developed if there is a determination arising from the present consultation consistent with the principles, legal precedents and inter-party and inter-government agreements outlined above.

    20) At present, however, the SDLP favours, as an interim step, in the current environment and to act consistent with the Agreements the option of flying no flags. This is not a resolution to this issue. It reflects realities without closing down opportunities, treats both communities in Northern Ireland equally and is consistent not only with the principle of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos and aspirations of both communities, but also with the right of people in Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both. The SDLP believes that this is a preferred method to proceed. However, the SDLP repeats that this is not a resolution of this issue and will continue to seek to explore methods of advancing the other options and addressing concerns.
    Not 100 per cent certain on what Sinn Féin's general flags policy is. Do they have an overall policy or is it published anywhere?

    By the way, I see Frazer has postponed due to the Gardaí requiring greater time to ensure security arrangements are in order: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/hea...test-1-4662505

    Lucky escape from embarrassment for him; maybe he can now re-organise the protest for a weekday when the tricolour will actually be flying over Leinster House...

  6. #6
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,026
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,397
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,635
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    I always forget you're in Manchester. It was announced quietly last night when FAIR got another spokesman out.
    Wee Willie was on The Last Word last night talking crap and was making no sense at all at all.
    His protest has morphed now into one highlighting collusion between the Gardai and PIRA.

    As an Irish citizen he is more than welcome to protest peacefully on the streets of his capital city.

    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post

    I'm not sure if many are aware, but Belfast apparently has a city flag of its own:



    Not certain of its provenance, however, nor do I know what its symbolism purports to represent as information on it seems extremely scarce.
    As regards it's provenance there is very little by way of comment only about the flag/arms other than they were granted by James II in 1613 when Belfast gained town status.

    For starters it is taken from the Shield of Belfast



    The bell in the top left is a reference to the first syllable of Bel-fast. This is an example of canting.

    The repeating blue and white design is a fur (vair). This usually denotes wealth adn as a major trading city it's not hard to see why it was included.
    I couldn't find anything about why it is in this triangular shape but I would wager it has something to do with the shape of the entrance into Belfast Lough.

    The ship is self explanatory I suppose and that it's located on fast moving waves denotes Belfast as a progressive trading port on the sea.

    And of course the flags on the ship are St Patrick's Saltire's which represent Ireland.
    Last edited by BonnieShels; 10/01/2013 at 1:47 PM.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  7. Thanks From:


  8. #7
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    I always forget you';re in Manchester.
    I do try and leave RTÉ News' online stream running in the background from time to time in order to remain abreast of affairs, but all I ever get is live footage of Aengus Mac Grianna doing up his make-up!

  9. Thanks From:


  10. #8
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    The bell in the top left is a reference to the first syllable of Bel-fast. This is an example of canting.
    Had never been aware of this practice in heraldry. Seems a bit absurd seeing as the root of the "Bel" has absolutely nothing to do with bells. A mouth of some sort would surely be more appropriate.

  11. #9
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,026
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,397
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,635
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    Had never been aware of this practice in heraldry. Seems a bit absurd seeing as the root of the "Bel" has absolutely nothing to do with bells. A mouth of some sort would surely be more appropriate.
    But then it wouldn't be canting.
    You have to understand though in the 1600s when the arms were granted the meaning behind "Bel" would have been almost non-existent for a lot of the populace.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  12. #10
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    Wee Willie was on The Last Word last night talking crap and was making no sense at all at all.
    His protest has morphed now into one highlighting collusion between the Gardai and PIRA.
    Found the segment at 12:00 minutes in part 2 of yesterday evening's show: http://media.todayfm.com/listenback/...nesday/1/popup

    Mary Lou McDonald is interviewed by Matt Cooper immediately after Frazer.

    So, is the Dublin protest now to go ahead on Saturday after all?

  13. #11
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    You have to understand though in the 1600s when the arms were granted the meaning behind "Bel" would have been almost non-existent for a lot of the populace.
    I suspect most in Ireland would have understood its linguistic origin perfectly well. The use of Irish was very much widespread (virtually universal?) around the beginning of the 1600s before a systematic process of Anglicisation was exercised by the authorities over the next two or three centuries. It is believed that the language remained in majority use across the island up until the beginning of the 1800s, whilst Ulster was seen as a Gaelic stronghold or the most Gaelic part of Ireland, being outside of English control, up until the Nine Years War of the 1590s and subsequent Ulster Plantation. Perhaps the city flag is a surviving early visual artefact of the de-Gaelification of Ireland then, associating, for little logical reason other than phony phonetics, the prefix with the English "bell" rather than the Irish "béal"?

    Just finished listening to Mary Lou McDonald who stated that Sinn Féin's flag policy is rooted in a preference for equality, so presumably the party wouldn't be in favour of flying solely the tricolour in any northern council on a permanent basis.

  14. #12
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,026
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,397
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,635
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    Found the segment at 12:00 minutes in part 2 of yesterday evening's show: http://media.todayfm.com/listenback/...nesday/1/popup

    Mary Lou McDonald is interviewed by Matt Cooper immediately after Frazer.

    So, is the Dublin protest now to go ahead on Saturday after all?
    It's not.

    Though from the comments I've read on RTE and elsewhere, FAIR seem to be indicating that the Gardai couldn't guarantee their safety and couldn't put the resources in place at such short notice.

    To be honest I think Wee Willie got his 15min so I'm thinking he'll be happy with that.
    Last edited by BonnieShels; 10/01/2013 at 3:10 PM.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  15. #13
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,026
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,397
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,635
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    I suspect most in Ireland would have understood its linguistic origin perfectly well. The use of Irish was very much widespread (virtually universal?) around the beginning of the 1600s before a systematic process of Anglicisation was exercised by the authorities over the next two or three centuries. It is believed that the language remained in majority use across the island up until the beginning of the 1800s, whilst Ulster was seen as a Gaelic stronghold or the most Gaelic part of Ireland, being outside of English control, up until the Nine Years War of the 1590s and subsequent Ulster Plantation. Perhaps the city flag is a surviving early visual artefact of the de-Gaelification of Ireland then?

    Just finished listening to Mary Lou McDonald who stated that Sinn Féin's flag policy is rooted in a preference for equality, so presumably the party wouldn't be in favour of flying solely the tricolour in any northern council on a permanent basis.
    I should have made my self clearer when I said populace. I was ignoring the "Gaels" of the region who had no input into the creation of the "Town". As I said it's a theory behind the canting of the bell.

    I have to say I was impresed by Mary Lou last night on The Last Word. First time I think I could ever say that.

    I'm sure it's Sinn Fein's stated policy that there should be equality and parity of esteem but I'm sure if someone stuck a Tricolour on top of City Hall they wouldn't complain.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  16. Thanks From:


  17. #14
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    It's not.
    Is that the latest, as of today? The interview on 'The Last Word' seemed to suggest that Frazier was still hoping to go ahead with it even in light Gardaí reservations. Or that negotiations were at least ongoing.

  18. #15
    First Team Not Brazil's Avatar
    Joined
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Belfast, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom
    Posts
    2,414
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    244
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    207
    Thanked in
    131 Posts
    The position of the other Councils in Northern Ireland:

    Click on "appendices for the final report on flying the Union Flag" - go to page 14.

    http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/equality/impact.asp

    The position of the Progressive Unionist Party in June 2012:

    -Northern Ireland is an integral part of the United Kingdom and the flag of a nation is a constitutional symbol

    -while this needs to be respected there is no requirement to fly the flag every day;

    -it is our opinion that the Union flag should fly outside the City Hall, the Ulster Hall and the Duncrue Complex on the designated flag days plus the additional four days exclusive to Northern Ireland.

    The position of the Progressive Unionist Party in November 2012

    -The Progressive Unionist Party’s view of the flag’s issue cannot be divorced from their vision for the future based upon the parameters of the GFA.

    -Northern Ireland is an integral part of the United Kingdom as per the will of the people. It is the view of the Progressive Unionist Party that while this needs to be respected there is no requirement that all day every day this glaring fact is appreciated. However the flag of a nation is a constitutional symbol and is also internationally recognised, a flag identifies its people and territory.

    -With these facts in mind, it is our opinion that the Union Flag should fly on a permanent basis outside Belfast City Hall. If this is not possible, our position is that the Union Flag should fly outside Belfast City Hall, Duncrue Complex and the Ulster Hall on the 15 ‘flag days’ as in the rest of the UK and those 4 days exclusive to Northern Ireland (New Year’s Day, Easter Day, 12 July and Christmas Day).

    Notice the change.
    The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
    But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
    Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
    And this is what we sang...

  19. #16
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    The final EQIA report on the flying of the Union flag outlines quite well the obvious logical problem with considering the proposal of flying the two flags: http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/equality/impact.asp

    5.10 One of the policy options considered in the 2003 EQIA was to give equal prominence to the Irish Tricolour whenever the Union flag was flown, either on a permanent basis or on designated flag days.

    5.11 In his opinion expressed in 2004, Senior Counsel (Mr Nicholas Hanna, QC) made it clear that the key issue in regard to this option was the overall aim of the policy. He considered that if the Union flag were to be flown on designated flag days only, the justification would be that the policy acknowledged Northern Ireland’s constitutional position as part of United Kingdom in a balanced and moderate way; however, such a reason could not be given to justify flying the flag of any other state. If the Union flag were to be flown on a permanent basis, Mr Hanna considered that:

    “there is a risk of it being inferred that the underlying reason for such a policy was either ‘to assert the ascendancy of one community over another’ (Brennan), or to acknowledge Northern Ireland’s constitutional position in a way which was neither balanced nor moderate, but was intended to give offence to those who opposed it. In such circumstances, while the flying of the Irish Tricolour alongside the Union Flag might possibly be regarded by some as ‘redressing the balance’, I think it would be very difficult indeed to justify such a course of action (which could be seen as a form of counterbalanced or mutual provocation/irritation) as paying proper regard to the desirability of promoting good relations.”

    5.12 The Draft EQIA Report concluded that, although it would not be unlawful to adopt a policy of flying the Irish Tricolour alongside the Union flag, there was a possibility that each flag would be regarded as representing one specific community; this option was therefore unlikely to better promote good relations and might be regarded as “mutual provocation”.

  20. #17
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    Why the PUP's sudden change of heart, NB? Is it aimed at further hurting Alliance, exploiting working class unionist/loyalist dissatisfaction due to the explosion of outrage this particular issue has unexpectedly sparked or is it rooted in something else?

  21. #18
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,026
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,397
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,635
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    Is that the latest, as of today? The interview on 'The Last Word' seemed to suggest that Frazier was still hoping to go ahead with it even in light Gardaí reservations. Or that negotiations were at least ongoing.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0109/uni...city-hall.html
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  22. Thanks From:


  23. #19
    First Team Not Brazil's Avatar
    Joined
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Belfast, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom
    Posts
    2,414
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    244
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    207
    Thanked in
    131 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    Why the PUP's sudden change of heart, NB? Is it aimed at further hurting Alliance, exploiting working class unionist/loyalist dissatisfaction due to the explosion of outrage this particular issue has unexpectedly sparked or is it rooted in something else?
    I don't know the inner thinking of the the PUP DI - but my guess would be a hardening of stance over the summer in light of what was perceived by "Loyalists" as unfair treatment on Parades. I think the PUP "grassroots" ie. UVF, would have kicked up a stink over it.
    The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
    But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
    Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
    And this is what we sang...

  24. #20
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    I'm sure it's Sinn Fein's stated policy that there should be equality and parity of esteem but I'm sure if someone stuck a Tricolour on top of City Hall they wouldn't complain.
    This was Sinn Féin's submission for the EQIA report:

    - any approach to the issue of flags should be set firmly within the context of the Good Friday Agreement;
    - the agreement acknowledged the sensitivity of the use of symbols and emblems for public places and the need to ensure that they are used in a manner which promotes mutual respect rather than division;
    - for Nationalists and Republicans the British Union flag is a symbol of foreign domination and represents generations of injustice, oppression, inequality, discrimination and violence;
    - if Nationalists and Republicans are to feel comfortable inside and outside the City Hall, then everyone’s cultural identity must be recognised and legitimised;
    - where British cultural symbols are involved in public life, equivalent Irish cultural and political symbols should be given equal prominence.

Page 1 of 14 12311 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Flag
    By Thunder-WYFC in forum Premier & First Divisions
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04/04/2007, 9:22 PM
  2. Flag Day
    By pete in forum Cork City
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 26/06/2003, 3:18 PM
  3. Big Flag
    By thecorner in forum Cork City
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 16/06/2003, 4:18 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •