QuoteIs that not a political decision too?Originally Posted by osarusan
It's "language variety" these days, not "dialect". Different connotations.
Is that not a political decision too?
Not really I think - the words have different connotations when it comes to the validity and independent identity of a language.
Words collocating with 'dialect' tend to be 'just', 'only', 'merely', which suggest a relationship to a parent language, and at worst, hint at the 'impurity' of the dialect itself. That is the politicalisation of languages - to suggest that one varity is merely a dialect of a parent language is often done to question the validity of the variety and the cultural identity linked to the language.
Solely from a linguistic* point of view, no language variety has any more intrinsic validity/merit/purity than any other.
*In contrast to sociolinguistics etc, which delve into the notions of language and culture, language and politics etc.
But is there not some value to having a hierarchy of classifications, like a taxonomy? Yeah, I see the problem with having a "parent" language and dialects, but I think you can also acknowledge that there are fairly narrow branches of an otherwise similar group, eg Serbo-Croat).
(For the record, my mother has a background in linguistics and would agree with you.)
But all different varieties of English (as an example we're all familiar with) are just that - varieties. There was no time when there was only one variety spoken, will all other varieties developing from that parent variety.
Given that this is the case, how is it decided which variety is at the top (or any other position) in a hierarchy? Which one deserves to be 'above' another, and why?
Narrow branches of a similar group - absolutely. But in the vast majority of cases, each variety deelop individually and has equal validity. It's when somebody says that "X is really just a variety of Y" that we see politics get involved, as the conscious or unconscious implication is that language X is a branch of the original language Y. Indeed, in the worst extremes, it often implies that "speakers of X are really just the same as speakers of Y" too.
Last edited by osarusan; 14/01/2013 at 3:15 AM.
Ahhh I see what you did. It's political!
I see what you mean, there is no definitive English except the one that's been politically decided. Maybe I have misunderstood, but it seems like you are still throwing out the idea of overarching categories though.Narrow branches of a similar group - absolutely. But in the vast majority of cases, each variety deelop individually and has equal validity. It's when somebody says that "X is really just a variety of Y" that we see politics get involved, as the conscious or unconscious implication is that language X is a branch of the original language Y. Indeed, in the worst extremes, it often implies that "speakers of X are really just the same as speakers of Y" too.
What do you mean by 'overarching categories'?
Surely categories aren't an issue, as long as one language is not deemed to be the 'origin' of a category. To say that Irish, Scottish and Manx Gaelic belong in the one category is fine, once none of the three is deemed higher than the other two.
No, unfortunately, otherwise it would be more easily solved. If one were to pursue such a theory then we would not have anglo-saxon languages, rather anglo-saxon language, or romance languages would become romance language. Serbian is quite distinct from Croatian, the same as from Slovenian and Macedonian, while in Kosovo it is more unusual for me. I worked and played with Janjevci (a large number were settled near where I lived) and while their cuture was very distinctly Albanian, they spoke a form of Serbian that was very different to local Croatian - with a lot of Albanian words.
edit: Forgot the categories, this feeds back to language groups or families so CD would be correct to say that languages could be parts of categories or groups, like the examples above - a-s, romance etc. However within these there are variations, slavic for example - knowing Croatian doesn't mean you can understand Russian, but you can grasp it a little easier, like English and German, French and Spanish etc.
Last edited by Spudulika; 14/01/2013 at 7:23 AM.
So, as Max Weinreich almost said, is "a language...a dialect with an Army, a Navy...and a UVF?"
Silly me, confusing the Irish Republic and its (self-styled) Army
Whether people's collective memory is of State or Paramilitary violence, don't ye think both are equally valid?
Last edited by Gather round; 14/01/2013 at 10:43 AM.
Yes indeed, I had forgotten that comment. It's actually very insightful in terms of language and power (apart from the UVF bit, of course).So, as Max Weinreich almost said, is "a language...a dialect with an Army, a Navy...and a UVF?"
Aye, it's a medley of Maxi W feat. the Rangers Supporters Choir
Tut tut.
I made up the word because I couldn't find any indication on the web for the "translation" for 'issue' and/or 'problem'.
I just said 'problem' in an North Antrim accent and hoped for the best.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Check thon oot: http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/I made up the word because I couldn't find any indication on the web for the "translation" for 'issue' and/or 'problem'.
I just said 'problem' in an North Antrim accent and hoped for the best.
Ischew, Ishue, Issue, v. Also: ishew, ishowe, ishw.Problem(e, Problewm, n. Also: probleam(e, problam(e, probleume, problowme.
Weird development in how the latest antics up north are playing out around the world. If you watch www.rt.com they are absolutely loving giving Westminster a kick and while the station is funnier than the Comedy Channel (though they don't seem to realise how absolutely hilarious they are at times) they have gotten in with some of the "loyalists" and one big hefty numpty began about the flag, then segwayed into "and we don't get the same benefits as them, and they're taking over the place". The reporter (a big of a headcase from England) pointed out that anybody she spoke to from the "loyalist" side all came back with anger at how they feel power is slipping away from them. In Croatia they've covered it purely from the "republican" view point and HRT have a tv crew in Belfast.
Interesting stuff. Given Croatia's recent history I'd imagine their coverage might be a bit more sensitive than some of the sneering from more peaceful Western European countries?
There are other similarities. During the Yugoslav divorce war(s) I remember watching a BBC report from a Serbian border village, the crew arriving shortly after a Croat militia had passed through. My understanding of the local language is limited but clearly the first woman they spoke to was screaming "The fcuking Catholics just torched my house!"...
All of that just looks like someone didn't use their dialling wand.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...s_2_Episode_6/
Panel show last night featuring a representative of SF/DUP/SDLP/Alliance with what can only be described as a heavily loyalist dominated audience discussing the flag issue/ongoing trouble. Was absolutely embarrassing to watch, NI still has quite a bit to go to really ditch the sectarian bigoted attitudes, and I couldn't help but think that IF there ever was the possibility of a united Ireland, recent scenes of violence would be nothing in comparison to what would happen then!
For once maybe someone will call me "sir" without adding "you're making a scene."
Croatia is a strange little country with strange people. Nothing surprises me with them.
The depth of fear/hatred that runs between the two religions is shocking, though in fairness the Orthodox church (especially in Croatia) have made great strides in reconciliation, though the Catholic church is massively corrupt, though after losing their buddies HDZ they're not as cocksure. A big gripe is that during/after the war the Catholic church controlled aid into the country and basically led the people (especially refugees) on a merry dance.
The Catholic Church would never be so underhanded. How very dare you sir.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
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