Eligibility Rules, Okay

[DannyInvincible]

Has anyone consulted the people of Donegal/Cavan and Monaghan about all this "Ulster(sic) Nationalism/Independence"???

There's an attempt to examine that complication in the website's FAQs section:

Where is Ulster?

Ulster is a small European country in the north-eastern corner of the island of Ireland. It comprises the six counties of Armagh, Antrim, Londonderry, Tyrone, Fermanagh and Down. Its capital city is Belfast. Ulster has a total land area of 5456 square miles. In comparison, Luxembourg is 999 square miles and Israel is 7992 square miles in area. Ulster is also known variously as 'Northern Ireland' (its legally recognised title), the 'Six Counties', the 'North of Ireland', and 'the Province' according to the political opinions or prejudices of different sections of the community. The Ulster state came into existence in 1921 under the Government of Ireland Act. Ulster remained a part of the United Kingdom with its own devolved parliamentary system, and retained the right to send 13 MPs to the sovereign Westminster Parliament. The greater part of the island was granted independent Dominion status as the Irish Free State under the terms of a controversial Anglo-Irish Treaty. In 1937 that state became Éire. It declared itself to be a republic in 1949.

Ulster is actually nine counties, so is it not true that the Six-County area has no right to call itself 'Ulster'?

Three counties, Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan, lie within the territory of the Irish Republic. Over the past two thousand years, Ulster's boundaries have ebbed and flowed like the tide. The Six-County area contains the Ulster heartland. Under British rule, the fifth ancient province, Meath, was sliced up between Ulster, Leinster and Connacht. In the reign of Queen Elizabeth I, Ulster was given Cavan. County Louth, especially the area around the Cooley peninsula, is an ancient part of Ulster that is now within Leinster.

Ulster has always been different from the rest of the island. Ninety years ago, when the first Provisional Government of Ulster was set up in response to the threat of a Dublin-based parliament, Edward Carson stated that "We must be prepared... on the morning of Home Rule... to govern those districts of which we have control." That proved to be the six counties of the present-day Ulster state. Modern Ulster was reborn on September 28th 1912 - Ulster Day. We have as much right to call our homeland 'Ulster' as the USA has to call itself 'America' and the Poles have to call their homeland 'Poland'. Poland's current boundaries bear little relationship to its boundaries in 1919. That nation's territory has shifted sideways to the West. Few people will deny the Polish people the right to call their state 'Poland' even though it no longer includes 'ancient Polish' territories that are now part of Lithuania, the Ukraine and Belarus.

[nigel-harps1954]

Has anyone consulted the people of Donegal/Cavan and Monaghan about all this "Ulster(sic) Nationalism/Independence"???

Meh, as far as I'm concerned I'm from neither. I'm from Donegal. It's a whole separate entity.

[SkStu]

So is Ulster eligible to declare for Ireland or what?

[osarusan]

Perhaps a thread in Current Affairs would be more suitable for most of the last few pages.

[BonnieShels]

Ah sure we didn't think Stu would notice.

[ArdeeBhoy]

You're confusing those that identify as being "Northern Irish" with those seeking an independent Northern Ireland.

Unionism and Independence are mutually exclusive ideals.

Interesting, of the small amount (3% in the 2010 Life & Times Survey) of those who think an Independent Northern Ireland would serve our best long term future, four times more identifying as "Catholic" prefer this (4% of Catholics) than those identifying as "Protestant" (1% of Protestants).

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2010/Polit.../NIRELND2.html

I'm not. During our discussion about the relative feelings of the local populace in the six counties, there were various studies linked, maybe by you, with various contradictory claims. That's all.

And maybe they're amongst the '3%', but heard and read various clowns from both sides of the divide saying they could be 'independent'. Like I said, hmm.

[Not Brazil]

Didn't one of those links to some 'identity' poll way up thread, possibly via NB, ironically show an increased no.of unionists interested in 'independence.

Hmm.

I'm not. During our discussion about the relative feelings of the local populace in the six counties, there were various studies linked, maybe by you, with various contradictory claims. That's all.

And maybe they're amongst the '3%', but heard and read various clowns from both sides of the divide saying they could be 'independent'. Like I said, hmm.

Could you link to any respected source that would indicate "an increased no.of unionists interested in 'independence."?

[ArdeeBhoy]

You're the one with time on yer hands...

Really not bothered about their various strains of warped thinking.

[Not Brazil]

You're the one with time on yer hands...

Really not bothered about their various strains of warped thinking.

That'll be a no then.

Hmm.

[Fixer82]

We'll have to differ. It's tuneless and bombastic like its British or Scottish equivaent.

Hmmm as a professional musician I'd have to step in here and say the tune is anything but tuneless and, rather, one of the more melodic of national anthems along with the 'Star Spangled Banner'

[Gather round]

Hmmm as a professional musician I'd have to step in here and say the tune is anything but tuneless and, rather, one of the more melodic of national anthems along with the 'Star Spangled Banner'

You wouldn't be a rank-pulling Irish-American professional musician by any chance?

OK, you like a tune I don't. I wasn't really commenting on its suitability for orchestral arrangement in a minor key or anything.

[ArdeeBhoy]

That'll be a no then.

Hmm.

Because you say so...
Let alone read my reply.


Hmm.

[BonnieShels]

Hmmm as a professional musician I'd have to step in here and say the tune is anything but tuneless and, rather, one of the more melodic of national anthems along with the 'Star Spangled Banner'

And don't forget Les Marseillaise and Il Canto/Fratelli d'Italia.

Anyway...

Back to the eligibility issues at hand.

[DannyInvincible]

Speaking of copycat anthems...

[Fixer82]

You wouldn't be a rank-pulling Irish-American professional musician by any chance?

OK, you like a tune I don't. I wasn't really commenting on its suitability for orchestral arrangement in a minor key or anything.

No I'm a Dubliner.
I have many grievances with the USA, in particular their foreign policies, but I can separate that from a good tune.
I am certainly an Irish republican but that doesn't mean I find fault with everything British or Unionist.
I appreciate quality, no matter in what guise it may appear.

[nigel-harps1954]

So is Ulster eligible to declare for Ireland or what?

Technically yes, but it's really a Catalonia/Spain type thing where we'd have no other choice.

[gastric]

I know Danny will probably disagree with me, but I have always found McKiittrick to be quite objective in his writing! Worth a read.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...y-8444651.html

[DannyInvincible]

Hehe, no major qualms with McKittrick here.

This is an interesting comment:

One of the deepest problems is a lack of regard for education [within loyalism]. Jobs for Protestants in shipbuilding and heavy engineering used to be so plentiful that education was regarded as basically unnecessary; but loyalism has not adapted to new economic realities.

Is there a particular or exclusive disregard within loyalism for education that isn't mirrored by those from an equivalent socio-economic background in the nationalist/republican community? It was always said that republican prisoners read books and educated themselves whilst their loyalist counterparts pumped iron. David Ervine denied this to be true, mind, and argued that loyalists were in fact ahead of republicans in their studious endeavours. Was there truth to it, however, or was it a case of the media lazily stereotyping/discrediting loyalists as brainless numbskulls on steroids incapable of any form of intellectual thought?

I think we all know the rioting and disorder isn't merely about a piece of red, white and blue cloth. People will say, "it's just a flag", but that is to naïvely disregard the sentiment and meaning humans - indeed, capable of abstract thought - attach to symbols and objects, especially those artefacts that define us or denote some status. We all do it; if it's not our flag, it's our house or our car or our new iPhone...

Flags have deeper meaning than the mere cloth on which their designs are printed and they resonate deeply with those they're purported to represent/those who identify with them. The current explosion of discontent is about the Union flag's symbolism and what its removal (or flying on only 20 designated days a year, to be more correct) now represents for the unionist/loyalist community. And that is not a tyrannical erosion of their British identity; but, rather, it represents a democratic erosion of the position of supremacy they've enjoyed for decades. Belfast is now, more or less, a 50:50 city in terms of nationalists:unionists and it's clear that certain unionists cannot accept this loss of majoritarian privilege. Obviously, times of economic hardship further stoke the flames, but it appears that democracy isn't favourable for many.

Were protests suspended yesterday as the Union flag was raised for Kate Middleton's birthday, by the way?

I'm not necessarily advocating this as a solution, but would the protests cease if the tricolour was raised permanently beside the Union flag? It would at least discredit the dubious "erosion of identity" narrative. Would unionists/loyalists tolerate such a compromise given current circumstances?

I'm not sure if many are aware, but Belfast apparently has a city flag of its own:



Not certain of its provenance, however, nor do I know what its symbolism purports to represent as information on it seems extremely scarce.

[BonnieShels]

Raising the Tricolour would not solve anything.

Loyalists would then denigrate my flag and see it as an "invasion".

I would love to see the Tricolour flying up there but as it has no official status within the United Kingdom it's highly unlikely it would happen.

In saying that Castlereagh BC fly the Ulster Banner and that has no offical status.

Do Newry and Mourne or Moyle DC fly a Tricolour?

McKittrick is right to underline the combination of this issue with the removal of the flag and the disaffection amongst Loyalist communities and it acting as a spark to a tinderbox.

Why have there been no protests outside Stormont considering it only flies the flag on designated days as well?

[BonnieShels]

I've set up a thread in CA for the flag discussion.

I can see Stu twitching in Regina if it continues in here anymore.

http://foot.ie/threads/175511-The-Fl...59#post1654159