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Thread: Woman denied abortion dies in Galway.

  1. #81
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    As a father of two I'd always say I was against abortion, but pro-choice. Reading that looks mad, but I don't believe it's my right to tell another person to do this or that with their body when I'm not involved. If it was my wife/partner/ex who was pregnant and wanted to terminate the pregnancy, I'd want to have a solid discussion with them, explore all the options and then if she makes a decision, at least I have been heard.

    Abortion just doesn't sit right with me, but would I look down on (for example) my sister for having one, which she hasn't, no. I would support her and lover her the same. What I find is very unsettling with many of the polarised comments is the lack of actual interest in the person, as in any battleground humanity isn't present and it's about winning a general point. I've read through the 5 pages here and am very impressed with the ideas and points of view.

    And as a student of archaeology and early Irish church history, it's worthwhile pointing out to the religious types that even saints provided family planning and abortion services (my own Saint Brigid being one).

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    Capped Player OwlsFan's Avatar
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    But it's not her body though. It's a human being inside her body. Who speaks for the unborn child? While in the womb, the child may be killed (or the euphemism "terminated"). When the child is born, it is murder if it is killed. Not something I have ever quite understood. Simplistic approach? Possibly but I would say there are thousands of Irish people in this country who owe their existence to our anti-abortion laws. Childless couples are also crying out for children to adopt.

    Spudulka you say you don't have a right if your partner decides to abort/terminate/kill your unborn child and yet when your child is born and let's say you don't want to know, she has the right to get orders against you to pay maintenance etc etc.

    My opinion has nothing to do with religion. In fact it is not a religious issue. It's a moral dilemma. Is a child in a womb entitled to the same rights as a child outside a womb even if the mother doesn't want that child? Once the umbilical cord is cut, the child has rights. Until then it has no rights according to some. I just don't see the distinction but the debate will continue and the pro-abortion lobby has certainly used the death of the mother in Galway to bring its case to the forefront again. I am also thinking of the child who died.

    Pro-choice? What choice does the child have?

    Rape child? I personally know one who is aware of her background and has her own beautiful family. The child is innocent in these circumstances and does not deserve to die because of its father's actions.
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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OwlsFan View Post
    But it's not her body though. It's a human being inside her body. Who speaks for the unborn child? While in the womb, the child may be killed (or the euphemism "terminated"). When the child is born, it is murder if it is killed. Not something I have ever quite understood.
    Is the foetus a human being/person in its own right though? It certainly has the potential to become a person, but it exists as a developing body of cells connected via an umbilical cord within the body of an actual person upon whose survival it relies for its own survival. It cannot survive by itself, it does not possess any sense of self-awareness nor does it possess many of the attributes that are considered to be essentially human.

    My opinion has nothing to do with religion. In fact it is not a religious issue. It's a moral dilemma. Is a child in a womb entitled to the same rights as a child outside a womb even if the mother doesn't want that child? Once the umbilical cord is cut, the child has rights. Until then it has no rights according to some.
    Not quite. In states where abortion is permitted, I'm pretty certain there is generally an agreed cut-off point during the pregnancy after which a termination would be prohibited. In Britain, for example, abortion is only permitted within the first 24 weeks of a pregnancy. Albeit subject to some debate, scientific consensus appears to suggest that pain can only be felt by a foetus after 26 weeks at the earliest.

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  6. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by OwlsFan View Post
    But it's not her body though. It's a human being inside her body. Who speaks for the unborn child? While in the womb, the child may be killed (or the euphemism "terminated"). When the child is born, it is murder if it is killed. Not something I have ever quite understood. Simplistic approach? Possibly but I would say there are thousands of Irish people in this country who owe their existence to our anti-abortion laws. Childless couples are also crying out for children to adopt.

    Spudulka you say you don't have a right if your partner decides to abort/terminate/kill your unborn child and yet when your child is born and let's say you don't want to know, she has the right to get orders against you to pay maintenance etc etc.

    My opinion has nothing to do with religion. In fact it is not a religious issue. It's a moral dilemma. Is a child in a womb entitled to the same rights as a child outside a womb even if the mother doesn't want that child? Once the umbilical cord is cut, the child has rights. Until then it has no rights according to some. I just don't see the distinction but the debate will continue and the pro-abortion lobby has certainly used the death of the mother in Galway to bring its case to the forefront again. I am also thinking of the child who died.

    Pro-choice? What choice does the child have?

    Rape child? I personally know one who is aware of her background and has her own beautiful family. The child is innocent in these circumstances and does not deserve to die because of its father's actions.
    OF, I know that my using the word "terminate" seems callous and cold, in the same way that "ethnic cleansing" or "regime change" are just part of modern language without considering what they entail - tell a father who had his child die of shrapnel wounds on August 7th just inside the Bosnian border after 2 days walking that they were just part of ethnic cleansing, or a black african family about to be lynched by French/UK/US backed islamic fundamentalists in Libya that they're just collateral damage during regime change, they would have much different views. Terminate (I agree) is just sanitisation of what abortion is, and I just don't know what other way it can be described without insulting one side or another.

    You mention adoption, this week the idiots in the russian houses of parliament used adoption as a stick to beat America with - they banned all adoptions to US couples, when the majority of these adoptions are of handicapped or invalided/ill children. Now I know that there have been scandalous instances in the recent past - a child dying from being left in a car by the parents, or a little boy sent back to Russia by plane with a note attached saying he's too difficult to deal with. But when you have a deputy, a woman (not from United Russia) standing up and stating that even if only 1/5 of the children adopted (c. 60,000) are used for organ transplants and sexual pleasure, there are still almost 50,000 being trained to fight Russia. This fool is allowed to makes rules on adoption, and she's not different from our own dail fools who sway with the wind and make it more difficult for loving parents/couples to adopt. So adoption (even by other family members) is immensely difficult to get through, so it's not a truly realistic option unless there is a whole load of red tape slashed away.

    You're right about the case where a father walks away and yet has to pay regardless - even if the woman refuses to put him on the birth cert (one of the most stunningly insane things about the gender balance in Ireland), and this is just as insane as my being unable to stop my partner/wife/girlfriend/ex having an abortion if she wants to. I don't have rights, zilch! All I can do is be understanding, supportive and hope for the best.

    OF, I don't like how you've slipped in the pro-abortion lobby bit, I heard that overrated hack Ivana Bacik use "anti-choice" against a member of the Iona Institute when the woman was actually making a very good point about the suicide element. As the woman rightly stated, if a woman feels that suicide is the only option rather than giving birth, then it is a more serious situation than just a pregnancy - that she should be supported and assisted and regardless that follow up care should be given. It was a very reasonable thing to say, yet she was attacked for being anti-choice. I don't like the fact that Israel continues to build illegal settlements on foreign land, but I am not anti-Israel, anti-semite and certainly prefer them to what they come up against from the islamic world.

    I agree about the situation with the child of rape, this whole thing of - the woman doesn't want to give birth because of what happened, is too convenient and a catch all, I do believe there should be an option, though I personally feel that it would note be utilised by more than use it now (via the UK).

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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    'Medical notes indicate Savita Halappanavar made a request for a termination': http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0117/sav...ar-galway.html

    So, it transpires her request was recorded after all but that her life was not believed to have been at risk at the time.

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    International Prospect jebus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OwlsFan View Post
    I just don't see the distinction but the debate will continue and the pro-abortion lobby has certainly used the death of the mother in Galway to bring its case to the forefront again. I am also thinking of the child who died.

    Pro-choice? What choice does the child have?

    Rape child? I personally know one who is aware of her background and has her own beautiful family. The child is innocent in these circumstances and does not deserve to die because of its father's actions.
    On a few of these points. When you use the term pro-abortion can I ask you to point me to one article from anyone who is genuinely advocating abortion as a thing someone should definitely do? You make it sound like some people see it as a way of life (ho-ho) but I've yet to hear or read about anyone who ever believes it's a good thing.

    I'd be of the looney left side that believes I have no right to tell a woman what to do with her life, definitely don't have any right to enforce those opinions to the extent that a rape victim has to carry a child to term and, in effect, make it so that a man can force himself on her, impregnate her and that society will then force her to alter her life, body and health quite dramatically. Even taking into account children born from a rape who grow up happy, I don't even see how that is an issue for anyone outside of Youth Defence to be honest.

    We'll see with legislation and how it goes, I imagine abortions will become available in cases of rape, incest, suicide & foetal abnormalities, but I hope suicide doesn't come with the baggage of having to have 5 separate psychiatrists sign off on it on the first rainy Monday of March. A psychiatrist should be involved at that stage anyway, if they deem the person to be suicidal and that person requests a termination it should be enough.

    The area that also needs to be looked at is with asylum seekers currently in Ireland. While they wait on a judgement on their status (can take upwards of 4 years I hear) they are unable to leave the country. At the moment if they were raped, and became pregnant, they would have a choice of leaving for the UK for an abortion and being sent back to whatever they have escaped from or carrying the foetus to term.

    Full disclosure: I don't think a foetus is a child up until it can live independently of its mother, I do want a referendum on full choice rights (abortion on demand if you want to call it that) in the next few years regardless of whatever floodgates people fear and I do understand that foetal abnormalities could open the door to eugenics. I think the rights of a woman walking around with the capacity for cognitive thought trumps all of that.

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    Reserves Keen2win's Avatar
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    Why do people not feel the father should have any say?

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    International Prospect jebus's Avatar
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    He has a say but ultimately it's up to the woman as it is still her body.

    Look at it this way, if a woman gets pregnant and decides to terminate it but the man wants to keep it what, keeping it legal, can he do beside trying to change her mind? He can talk to her but if she still decides to go ahead with it he can't do anything about it. Reverse that to a woman gets pregnant, wants to keep it but the guy doesn't. Keeping it legal again, what can he do about that situation once she has decided to have the baby?

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    He doesn't really have a say at all so. He wouldn't even have to be told?

    And if it is her body and her choice, surely she should be allowed to abort the baby up until the last possible second? Why not?

    Well I think there should be some rights for the father, in that if the sex was consensual and he wants to keep the child, that should have some legal sway. Remember, you may believe a foetus is not a child, but many fathers would not agree. Who are you to say they are wrong?

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    International Prospect jebus's Avatar
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    You see that you are advocating that the courts deny a woman the right to travel if she decides to abort but the father doesn't want it? This has already been quashed in the courts and is completely unworkable, you may believe a father should have legal rights over a woman's womb but I don't think the courts will ever back you up on that and that's just being realistic about it.

    As for the other two points, yeah I guess a man doesn't have to be told if a woman gets pregnant, that happens every day in this world. She can emigrate to the other side of the planet and never see him again if that's what she wants.

    On aborting up to the last second, first off let's acknowledge that late term abortions are rare (1-2% of all abortions) and happen mostly due to foetal abnormalities or where it is deemed the child will have little quality of life, most of these are something the mother didn't want to happen and comes after the 20 week check up. By the UK & Wales figures for 2011 it shows that 79% of abortions take place before 10 weeks with 91% before 12 weeks. The figure goes up to 98% up to 19 weeks.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...-england-wales

    Now for when the choice is taken from a pregnant woman. Well I'll let doctors decide that to be honest. Personally I just view it as whenever the foetus can survive outside of the womb, but that only goes on what I've read. In the medical world that is being debated on still but I haven't seen it being put at lower than 20 weeks yet, and that is in rare cases. But that's again getting hung up 2% of abortions, lots of which are because of foetal abnormalities or danger to the woman's life.

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    International Prospect passinginterest's Avatar
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    Not a debate I'd generally get involved in and one where my views have continued to become more liberal with age, but, I think Jebus has summed it up extremey well and I'd share his views.

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  17. #93
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    The father can have a say, when he's carrying the baby, undergoing the effects of the pregnancy, is exposed to the potential risks of the pregnancy etc.
    If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.

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    Director dahamsta's Avatar
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    Call me old-fashioned, but I'd be of the view that the father should have some say, and referring it to as "having control over a woman's womb" is unnecessarily emotionalising it -- I'd go so far as to say it's the kind of horsecrap I'd expect from the militant anti-abortion ahabs, and I'd expect better in there.

    I'm not for a minute suggesting that a father should have a 50:50 say, but he should have a right to say his piece and not be dismissed out of hand. If it's absolutely mandatory for a father to pay child support, and be emasculated if he doesn't - and rightly so in both cases - then he should damned well have a say in this.

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    International Prospect jebus's Avatar
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    All well and good but what exactly is the point in the man having, say, 49% of the vote? What happens when the woman says 'well I have majority say and I'm saying abortion'?

    And are you not asking for some control of the womb by saying the man has his legal rights? Or what exactly are you suggesting the courts do here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dahamsta View Post
    Call me old-fashioned, but I'd be of the view that the father should have some say, and referring it to as "having control over a woman's womb" is unnecessarily emotionalising it -- I'd go so far as to say it's the kind of horsecrap I'd expect from the militant anti-abortion ahabs, and I'd expect better in there.

    I'm not for a minute suggesting that a father should have a 50:50 say, but he should have a right to say his piece and not be dismissed out of hand. If it's absolutely mandatory for a father to pay child support, and be emasculated if he doesn't - and rightly so in both cases - then he should damned well have a say in this.
    Maybe saying no right to a say is wrong phraseology, but they should have no right to force a woman to carry a child to term. They can attempt to persuade. The case that sparked this thread shows that no pregnancy, even if the woman is healthy, is risk free.

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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dahamsta View Post
    Call me old-fashioned, but I'd be of the view that the father should have some say, and referring it to as "having control over a woman's womb" is unnecessarily emotionalising it -- I'd go so far as to say it's the kind of horsecrap I'd expect from the militant anti-abortion ahabs, and I'd expect better in there.

    I'm not for a minute suggesting that a father should have a 50:50 say, but he should have a right to say his piece and not be dismissed out of hand. If it's absolutely mandatory for a father to pay child support, and be emasculated if he doesn't - and rightly so in both cases - then he should damned well have a say in this.
    Hello old-fashioned!



    Completely agree.

    It's that over-emotional language that has swayed me ever and ever back to the right on this issue. As is my wont.
    Last edited by BonnieShels; 18/02/2013 at 11:11 AM.
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    Director dahamsta's Avatar
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    I'm a huge fan of the Old Fashioned, ever since Karen Walker introduced me. Quality is very dependant on the barkeep though.

    jebus, Macy, please point to the part of my post that sez "voting" or "forcing" should be involved. I phrased it very carefully ("some say", "a say"), so I'm pretty, pretty sure it's not there.

    It's not an election, it's a judgement call.

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    Seasoned Pro peadar1987's Avatar
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    To be fair, neither side is innocent on the "over-emotional language" front. From "baby-murderers" to "womb-controllers".

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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peadar1987 View Post
    To be fair, neither side is innocent on the "over-emotional language" front. From "baby-murderers" to "womb-controllers".
    They aren't. But I was a bit of a leftie in regards this... moving right is moving me towards the centre.
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