Apparently, although it has been argued that the shipping of our maternity problems abroad - that referring to the "safety net" provided by the close proximity of Britian, where abortion is, of course, legal - has resulted in unreliable statistics.Originally Posted by osarusan
My bit about India was to do with the preceding paragraph where I'd given out about the self loathing Oirish.
The paragraph it was a direct follow on from.
The paragraph you left out in a (massively successful) attempt to work yourself up into an indignant lather.
150th in infant mortality.never mind your oversimplified impressions of India society?
Just ahead of Zimbabwe and Yemen, just behind Burma and Bangladesh.
129th in Maternal Mortality Rate.
Tucked between Namibia and Djibouti.
Spare me.
Again working yourself up into a lather.So Mr. Halappanavar should shut up, remember where he came from and he should have no more expectation of a standard of medical treatment than some homeless kid in India gets?
Why not tell him outright 'to go back home'?
If a serious investigation into the circumstances is needed (and nowhere did I state an investigation into the circumstances wasn't needed) then surely it should be conducted in a manner which the elected government and their experts see fit and not at the whim of Mr. Halappanavar??
To me this seems like common sense. Yet again, you twist my comments to try and beat me with the racialist stick.
Read what is written.
There's no need to put an imaginary slant on it that suit you.
It is what it is.
Nowhere did I question whether or not there should be an investigation.Where does one determine an acceptable standard of proof?
There is evidence and set of circumstances to investigate, an investigation into the medical practice used with this woman and one part is to find out the reasons for decisions taken.
The abortion laws exist and they are an issue
The main thrust of my post was against the "REFERDUM NOW" v "NO REFERENDUM" nonsense we've been subjected to by the two extremes on the issue.
They are of course talking nonsense precisely because there hasn't been an investigation yet.
Again, try just reading what's written.
In fairness I also threw the pro life wackjobs into a similar basket. (A throwing that you don't seem as put out by)
You, like me, despite having a different opinion, are with the vast majority of people in the fairly sensible middle ground.
The point I was making is that in these kind of debates you don't get sensible, middle ground debate.
You get two sets of equally dislikable, equally unpopular, extremists mooing at one another.
Last edited by Lim till i die; 22/11/2012 at 6:50 PM.
The HSE/Gov.ie handling of this has been a complete clusterfeck. I've seen their incompetence on several occasions but never such an amount of it compressed into one giant ball of snot.
Everyone knows abortion is a killer issue - pardon the pun - which is why none of them ever have the balls to actually do anything about it, but if they continue as they are it'll be suicide.
The worst thing is, if they do fall apart, we'll have FF back again!
Jaysus, I'd forgotten we'd got rid of FF. Funny how things slip your mind.
I did mention both of your pre-configured pigeonholes.In fairness I also threw the pro life wackjobs into a similar basket. (A throwing that you don't seem as put out by
There is a lot of guff being spouted, to be honest, which, I admit, is unnerving considering nobody is, as of yet, certain of the facts. But when did the sensible middle-ground ever make the headlines?The point I was making is that in these kind of debates you don't get sensible, middle ground debate.
You get two sets of equally dislikable, equally unpopular, extremists mooing at one another.
That's how they get ya. Ratings up too. People have very short memories. The Oirish as a people appear to have collective Attention Deficit Disorder.
Last edited by dahamsta; 22/11/2012 at 10:59 PM.
Perhaps it makes common sense to you,
Lets have a look at what you wrote, after you gave out about the "self loathing Oirish".
"And now Mr. Halappanavar isn't happy with the make up of the inquiry team?! He should be politely told that although we are obviously very sorry for his tragice loss he needs to take a step back now and if he has indeed been suddenly afflicted with a huge desire to ensure that the mothers and babies of the world are correctly cared for he could begin his mission at lot closer to home."
Personally I agreed with Halappanavar's reservations at the time, his solicitor also gave good reasons and as it turned out his reservations were accurate and supported by many people.
Imo, telling him nicely to shut up, stop interfering and worry about saving children back in his homeland, is patronizing and condescending drivel.
I'm not in the least interested to comment on those opinions of yours or use extreme descriptions like 'pro life wackjobs',In fairness I also threw the pro life wackjobs into a similar basket. (A throwing that you don't seem as put out by
You, like me, despite having a different opinion, are with the vast majority of people in the fairly sensible middle ground.
The point I was making is that in these kind of debates you don't get sensible, middle ground debate.
You get two sets of equally dislikable, equally unpopular, extremists mooing at one another.
except to highlight the obvious contradiction in your self-congratulatory tone, alluding/implying that the manner of how you express yourself is a part of a "sensible, middle ground debate".
Last edited by geysir; 23/11/2012 at 8:07 AM.
Indeed, what does the state of maternity care in India have to do with the death of Savita Halappanavar? :/
Anyhow, it transpires that her repeated requests for a termination are now missing from her medical notes: http://www.independent.ie/national-n...g-3303063.html
Can we assume that requests were definitely made, or does the absence of notes now raise doubt over such a presumption made on good faith? Either there were no requests or there were requests and doctors either neglected their medical duty of care (or is the taking of notes/recording of patient requests a duty?) and failed to record them or they have been removed from the notes in a cover-up attempt. Nevertheless, if a probability could have been established that Mrs. Halappanavar's condition was posing a real and substantial risk to her life, whether she had requested a termination or not would surely be inconsequential and of no substantive difference.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 23/11/2012 at 8:43 AM.
They probably learned from all the builders to forget to take notes, plausible deniability an' all that. I just hope that if the requests are genuine, the father had the forethought to note dates and times himself. I think I would given that the denials, but who can say what mindset they'd be in in that situation.
I discussed this with the wife, who's currently pregnant. I told her that I'd have found a way to do it myself. She agreed. But again, I can only imagine what the father was going through.
I'll tell you this though: if someone told me I couldn't have the foetus terminated because Ireland is a catholic country, they'd be thanking their lucky stars they were in a hospital, because I'd break their face right there and then.
[QUOTE=dahamsta;1645648]clusterfeck[QUOTE]
Are even you, the owner of the site not allowed a "u" in this instance?
One of my all-time favourite words. God bless it's use.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Legislating for X doesn't go far enough. Ignoring the eventual outcome, and whether an earlier termination would've prevented the sepsis, it's completely barbaric that a woman would have to go through days of pain and anguish in circumstances where there is no hope of survival of the foetus. The Government should grasp the nettle now, and go for a constitutional referendum that recognises the health of the mother, as well as her life. That is the only real way to give proper clarity to the medical profession in my opinion.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
Self-censorship. I like clusterfeck better now anyway.
I have have a number of "friends" who are of that crazy militant feminist type and have barracked me at every turn when I comment or make a statement on this.
So has a possessor of a penis and obviously the wrong chromosomes I faithfully withdraw all opinions on abortion, women's rights, childbirth, sex and anything else which may result in me getting a public and/or facebook dressing-down.
***bags!
Now, I will go stand in a corner and flagellate myself for being a white heterosexual male in a western democracy. How dare I.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
How can you expect women to take a guy seriously on sensitive feminine issues when he shouts "funbags!" in the middle of a rant?
It wasn't fun...
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Gee, really?
Yes Stu. Yes.
eh...
The outrage at the votes result last night made me laugh.
Reminded me of this...
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
'Government abortion legislation to include threat of suicide': http://www.newstalk.ie/Government-ab...eat-of-suicide
What's controversial about the legislation being in line with the Supreme Court's interpretation in the 'X' Case? Wasn't that the only line possible?The government is to introduce legislation and regulation to allow for abortion in certain cases when a woman's life is at risk including the threat of suicide.
Legislation in line with the Supreme Court 'X Case' will be drafted over the coming months by Health Minister James Reilly.
After weeks of a heated debate the coalition in the end ignored nervous Fine Gael backbenchers and went with the advice of the Expert Group.
They will now legislate and regulate for the provision of terminations in certain cases when a woman's life is at risk.
But controversially the legislation will be in line with the Supreme Court interpretation in the 'X Case'
This means the threat of suicide will be legislated for as a risk to the life of a woman.
In a government Statement Minister Reilly says they will provide clarity for the medical profession about what is permissible - doctors will still have to take full account of the equal right to life of the unborn child.
Yeah - the fgers must be thick. The only way to legislate for the x case is to include the threat of suicide.
Newstalk would use the word contersial in practically anything. "RTE's evening news, which controversially starts at 9pm..."
It might've taken 20 years and it seems as it FG are doing this against their will, but regardless, however they got there, its the right thing to do.
54,321 sold - wws will never die - ***
---
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