Kerry LoI discussion

[culloty82]

Given the rising standard of soccer locally and various efforts to compete at national level over the last decade, it's fair to say that a squad of Kerry players could be competitive in the League of Ireland - the ongoing debate for most of that time being what model is best placed to provide a sustainable infrastructure? Currently, Tralee Dynamos are taking the initiative, but their plans have been considered unrealistic, while the infrastructure is in place at Mounthawk Park, though no consensus or focus among member clubs. Personally, I'm entirely neutral as to what eventually occurs, once a self-financing League club capable of challenging in all competitions eventually secures entry, but the main priority has to be ending the rift that has long endured in Kerry soccer. Any Kerry club competing at national level has to be able to attract 4-500 attendances in order to have a guaranteed future, which though it seems a tough target, is only 10% of that for a low-key NFL match, and Friday night would see little competition from other sports. Similarly, such a club should be able to draw on all the available local talent, even attracting Kerry players currently at other LoI clubs.

[Eminence Grise]

I’m a fairly frequent visitor to Tralee (Mrs Grise hails from the town), and I’ve great regard for what Dynamos tried to achieve.

I think the few years in the A Championship showed an appetite for league football, and the hard work that goes with it. The experience of running the club at that level should be a good launch pad for the future. For me, a Kerry-named team makes sense, and it should be based in Tralee. It’s a crude population consideration. A triangle of Killarney, Killorgan and Listowel has Tralee roughly at its centre, and an urban population of about 45,000 (around one-third of the county) within a half hour drive; more including smaller towns and rural areas. As little as 0.75% of that catchment area gives you the numbers needed for first division football. In fact, the numbers are probably similar to Dundalk, Drogheda, Sligo etc. Getting bums on seat is the problem, but the population is there for a club to be marketed. Could Dynamos rebrand as, say, Kerry Dynamos (most common name I’ve seen here), remain a Tralee team but tap into that market? Or would the turf wars need to be sorted out first? I don't know enough about the personalities or the issues.

[legendz]

I'd like a Kerry entity to enter the league but I'm not sure now that's the way forward. You look at Kildare County, I've made the point regards Newbridge Town.

It's disappointing Dynamos didn't get in this year but a solution has to be found for Dynamos and other recent A Championship clubs. Football is football. Clubs need to develop while having a team on the park. This is why I'm so against the removal of the third tier.

If Dynamos got into the LoI, they definitely could have become the focal point for the development of the game within the county. As I've said before, when they do get in, which I believe they will, they'll have to run soccer camps in Killarney, Dingle, Listowel as well as Tralee. If they put in the work within the county, they'd get the support.

Now this might seem crazy at the moment but I believe Kerry can have two clubs, if there not a single team for Kerry. If the KDL clubs can't put forward one club for all, Tralee and Killarney are capable of a club each, and a rivalry their can promote the game in the county while they can also challenge each others in terms of promotion of the game, development of talent and getting the best players.

If a second division was to come in as I suggested, if the drive was their, I could see a Killarney club coming in within about 5 years. Alas, wishful thinking for now. The U19 south league as mentioned, has shown while not ideal, 6 clubs can compete in a division and let the games be played.

[Eminence Grise]

Legendz, I thought something similar about Kerry being able to support two clubs, but I'm not so sure the numbers stack up. The county population is about 145,000, which is about 20,000 or so more than Louth. The difference is that Louth has two well-established clubs with historical fanbases. Kerry is also at a disadvantage in that is bordered by two counties where LoI soccer is already present, so the catchment area won't necessarily expand much beyond the county border.

Given a choice between having two teams sharing finite resources (fanbase, player pool, sponsorship) and having their existence defined by their limitations, or one team tapping into all the resources and being able to function as a semi-professional outfit, I'd prefer the latter. It's a bit abritrary of me, but I think that any club needs to have around 100,000 people in its catchment area (under 45 minute drive) for critical mass - for the Premier division at any rate. It's interesting that we both have much the same geographic territory mapped out for the Dynamos!

For now, we live in hope!

[kerrysock]

2 teams? - We would be lucky to get one county team.

Lads, the a-championship was a joke of a division for a few years and the FAI have scrapped it as a consequence. The league was supposed to be a feeder league to enable clubs into the first division but it failed miserably - no clubs with a high enough calibre to achieve a first division license came out of the league and also the recession ended what proved to be a financially unviable league.

The FAI are 100% right to have done what they did - it was in the best interest of all clubs involved from a financial perspective. Legendz mentioned having a 3rd tier with 6 teams - sounds like desparation to me. I must say clubs like Dynamos must now accept reality and fall back into junior ranks as the money simply isnt there. The only viable option for a LOI team in Kerry is to have a team that is supported by all junior clubs.

Hard pill to swallow but Dynamos need to realise that, check in with reality and row behind a county team...as it is not remotely financially possible by themselves!

[Eminence Grise]

The only viable option for a LOI team in Kerry is to have a team that is supported by all junior clubs.

Hard pill to swallow but Dynamos need to realise that, check in with reality and row behind a county team...as it is not remotely financially possible by themselves!

But if Kerry football is as riven with factionalism as has been suggested on other threads, then this can never happen. Indeed, they might be better off without the baggage of junior football politics. It also suggests a town of 23,000 people can't sustain an amateur (or very semi-pro) team playing at a higher lever than the Kerry league.... I'm sure there are a few LoI clubs from much smaller towns plodding along, and surviving, that would disprove that.

The ochón agus ochón ó (not you, but generally) way of thinking drives me nutty. Fine, the Dynamos weren't ready to make the step up this season. At least they had the bottle to try. Hopefully, they'll be back next season, wiser and beter prepared.

[kerrysock]

It also suggests a town of 23,000 people can't sustain an amateur (or very semi-pro) team playing at a higher lever than the Kerry league.... I'm sure there are a few LoI clubs from much smaller towns plodding along, and surviving, that would disprove that

You are missing one huge factor here - Dynamos in general are not that liked in Tralee. The very low attendances down through the years and during the a-championship prove that. So a town with 23,000 people are not backing the club - can you not see that. You all say "hopefully they can step up next season" or "at least they had the bottle to try" but you are all failing to see that financially LOI for dynamos is not viable.

The club have went backwards off the field in the last few years especially with the lack of facilities. The word on the street here in Tralee is that Dynamos is a club that is suffering at the moment - a club in demise and I think thats very sad.

Like why should Dynamos have to step up by themselves just because the KDL dont want to put a team into the LOI? I wish the club would just go back to basics, go back into the KDL and take it from there to try to regain status as the best junior club in Kerry. I just feel this LOI adventure is just damaging the club day by day and Im saddened by that - its a great club with a great tradition - now the club is going to go on a full season where the only senior team thats exists is in the 4th tier of the kdl - its a mess and very damaging!

[culloty82]

Two themes worth thrashing out here are player development and business support. In the first case, would it be better to have one central academy based in Tralee, drawing players from around the county, or continue to leave that job to local clubs? Similarly, if Dynamos do get the funding plans in place by next year, they would need support from businesses around the county, given the state of trading in Tralee town at the moment. Finally, similar to Cork City, a successful club would need regular supporters from Listowel, Killarney, Dingle etc, perhaps not in the first season, but looking to the future.

[peadar1987]

I think there is a case for a separate entity being set up to enter the LOI. It could be Dynamos-led, but I think it would have the most chance of success if it brought as many clubs on board as possible. As I've said before, the key to a successful partnership between junior and senior clubs is mutual benefit.

The benefit for the senior club, Kerry Dynamos, The Kingdom FC, Kerrymaid Athletic, whatever they want to call themselves, is the cream of young Kerry footballers, and bums on seats from having the connection to the Kerry football community.

The benefit for the junior clubs would most likely have to be financial. I would think if €50 was paid to a junior club each time an ex-player of theirs featured for the senior side, it would be more than enough to dispel a "poaching our lads" attitude, and have them queuing up to have their players sign up for the senior side. Obviously you'd still have some squabbles, but I think such a side would have a lot more support from Kerry as a whole than one single side going it on their own. There's also the added benefit of great clubs like Dynamos not exposing themselves to the risk of the LOI. We've seen plenty of evidence of how it tends to chew up clubs financially.

On the subject of Kerry's population, County Longford only has a population of 38,000, and Monaghan 60,500. I don't know how much support Longford and Monaghan draw from surrounding counties, but that still compares favourably with Kerry (145,000), and those two clubs are also evidence that with good management, it is possible to survive in the LOI quite happily with small crowds.

[kerrysock]

I think there is a case for a separate entity being set up to enter the LOI. It could be Dynamos-led, but I think it would have the most chance of success if it brought as many clubs on board as possible. As I've said before, the key to a successful partnership between junior and senior clubs is mutual benefit.

The benefit for the senior club, Kerry Dynamos, The Kingdom FC, Kerrymaid Athletic, whatever they want to call themselves, is the cream of young Kerry footballers, and bums on seats from having the connection to the Kerry football community.

The benefit for the junior clubs would most likely have to be financial. I would think if €50 was paid to a junior club each time an ex-player of theirs featured for the senior side, it would be more than enough to dispel a "poaching our lads" attitude, and have them queuing up to have their players sign up for the senior side. Obviously you'd still have some squabbles, but I think such a side would have a lot more support from Kerry as a whole than one single side going it on their own. There's also the added benefit of great clubs like Dynamos not exposing themselves to the risk of the LOI. We've seen plenty of evidence of how it tends to chew up clubs financially.

On the subject of Kerry's population, County Longford only has a population of 38,000, and Monaghan 60,500. I don't know how much support Longford and Monaghan draw from surrounding counties, but that still compares favourably with Kerry (145,000), and those two clubs are also evidence that with good management, it is possible to survive in the LOI quite happily with small crowds.

+ 1 here, couldnt have said it better!

[legendz]

Will the Kerry League be taking part in the League Cup this year? If they are, maybe the lead up to that game should see discussions take place about where Kerry football is going and if it's possible to get a Kerry entity with the support of the KDL to work at forming a club to compete at a national level and represent the county? It would be great to see a club represent all of Kerry. It has always been my preference but it recent years I have become supportive of what Dynamos have been looking to do. With hard work I don't believe it is beyond Dynamos if they were to get in to get the backing of all the county. Kerrysock make a point that Dynamos are not well liked but attitudes can change but it'd have been down to Dynamos as well. They are never going to get automatic support from other areas, it has to be earned.

[nigel-harps1954]

Will the Kerry League be taking part in the League Cup this year? If they are, maybe the lead up to that game should see discussions take place about where Kerry football is going and if it's possible to get a Kerry entity with the support of the KDL to work at forming a club to compete at a national level and represent the county? It would be great to see a club represent all of Kerry. It has always been my preference but it recent years I have become supportive of what Dynamos have been looking to do. With hard work I don't believe it is beyond Dynamos if they were to get in to get the backing of all the county. Kerrysock make a point that Dynamos are not well liked but attitudes can change but it'd have been down to Dynamos as well. They are never going to get automatic support from other areas, it has to be earned.

That is something you need to be asking the Kerry League.

[limfan]

The Reality is that Kerry missed the boat to join the LOI after the first two years of the success of the under 21 team. During that time they had eveything they needed to join. Mounthawk Park, 500 seater, fans of 600-800 attending under 21 games, sponsorship, support from all the county and a growing reputation in the LOI. Most importantly the players were there. Of the first three seasons, Shane Guthrie (Limerick, Cork City, Galway, St Pats) James Sugrue (Limerick) Chris kerins (Limerick, St Pats) Steven o Mahony (Limerick) David Conway (Limerick) David Hennessy (Waterford, Cobh) Timmy Lynch ( Limerick) Sean Kelly (Arsenal, Cork, Galway, Limerick) Steven Conway ( Limerick) Billy Dennehy (Sunderland, Derry, Cork, Shamrock Rovers) John Dineen (UCD, Cork City). All these players started with the kerry under 21's, granted most never stayed playing EL respectively but collectively as a team core it could have been the start of something great at the time when it was the right time.

Now lets fast forward to now. Tralee Dynamos tried but it was inevitable that they were always up against it. Its a recession, players to compete at the level are not there yet, i believe they would be the whipping boys. Atendances are very low, sponsorship is not there, no lights, no seating, fan base is tiny and they dont have the support of the county. They have a good idea and tried to do it thinking everyone would follow them in the county, players included, but surely now they should cut their losses and go back playing junior.

Its clear that the boat sailed along time ago when everything was in place. The only way to go LOI is an all county push, not one club push. Killarney Celtic maybe in a few years maybe?? They have been making strides on and off the pitch, who know's when LOI will be played in Kerry

[legendz]

The thing is though a Kerry League team couldn't just join the LoI, same as the Mayo League. There was a few years gap between the U21's doing well and the formation of the A Championship. When the A Championship did come in it was Tralee and Castlebar who took it upon themselves to step up to the plate.

[kerrysock]

The Reality is that Kerry missed the boat to join the LOI after the first two years of the success of the under 21 team. During that time they had eveything they needed to join. Mounthawk Park, 500 seater, fans of 600-800 attending under 21 games, sponsorship, support from all the county and a growing reputation in the LOI. Most importantly the players were there. Of the first three seasons, Shane Guthrie (Limerick, Cork City, Galway, St Pats) James Sugrue (Limerick) Chris kerins (Limerick, St Pats) Steven o Mahony (Limerick) David Conway (Limerick) David Hennessy (Waterford, Cobh) Timmy Lynch ( Limerick) Sean Kelly (Arsenal, Cork, Galway, Limerick) Steven Conway ( Limerick) Billy Dennehy (Sunderland, Derry, Cork, Shamrock Rovers) John Dineen (UCD, Cork City). All these players started with the kerry under 21's, granted most never stayed playing EL respectively but collectively as a team core it could have been the start of something great at the time when it was the right time.

Now lets fast forward to now. Tralee Dynamos tried but it was inevitable that they were always up against it. Its a recession, players to compete at the level are not there yet, i believe they would be the whipping boys. Atendances are very low, sponsorship is not there, no lights, no seating, fan base is tiny and they dont have the support of the county. They have a good idea and tried to do it thinking everyone would follow them in the county, players included, but surely now they should cut their losses and go back playing junior.

Its clear that the boat sailed along time ago when everything was in place. The only way to go LOI is an all county push, not one club push. Killarney Celtic maybe in a few years maybe?? They have been making strides on and off the pitch, who know's when LOI will be played in Kerry

Well said limfan, agree with everything here. A Kerry LOI team is the only viable option in my opinion, but I agree, the opportunity was missed a few years ago.

[kerrysock]

With hard work I don't believe it is beyond Dynamos if they were to get in to get the backing of all the county. Kerrysock make a point that Dynamos are not well liked but attitudes can change but it'd have been down to Dynamos as well. They are never going to get automatic support from other areas, it has to be earned.

Dynamos have been doing tremendously hard work for the last few years but before gaining support in other areas they have to gain support in their own area first i.e. Tralee!

LOI is a step too far for the club, I agree with limfan that Dynamos should go back and join the kerry district league and start pushing towards a Kerry LOI team. Dynamos have pressed the self destruct button by pursuing an LOI team for the last few years - they should now do the sensible thing and step back into junior football and start investing from the ground up into facilities.

In my view a kerry LOI team is at least 5 years away, it won't happen overnight!

[legendz]

One club isn't going to have the entire support of Tralee within the KDL. Personally I think they'd have to have LoI status and set-up soccer camps in Tralee and the county to grow their support. It'd take time but in fairness there's not going to be an overnight success or an automatic allegiance earned based on getting into the LoI proper should the be successful in the near future. Dynamos will earn my support if they join the LoI proper. I've used their crest here as an avatar as a small gesture of support for what they've been looking to do.

[kerrysock]

One club isn't going to have the entire support of Tralee within the KDL.Personally I think they'd have to have LoI status and set-up soccer camps in Tralee and the county to grow their support. It'd take time but in fairness there's not going to be an overnight success or an automatic allegiance earned based on getting into the LoI proper should the be successful in the near future. Dynamos will earn my support if they join the LoI proper. I've used their crest here as an avatar as a small gesture of support for what they've been looking to do.

I can understand supporting the team for achieving LOI status but you keep dodging the most important question of all - its viability. The finances are not there simple as that.

Do you not agree that Dynamos best step is go back into junior football and start investing from the ground up into facilities?, I think limfan and I agree on this, and we reflect most kerry soccer peoples view on this matter. There is a general view in Kerry at the moment that Dynamos are on a downslope due to investing in in something the club simply cannot afford.

[Shannonsider]

I don't think Tralee will be in the LOI in the near future. According to what I was told, they could only provide forcasts for the FAI for only half of the money the FAI required for them to have to get a First Divison licsence. That was the basic running cost for a First Division club for a season.

[legendz]

I can understand supporting the team for achieving LOI status but you keep dodging the most important question of all - its viability. The finances are not there simple as that.

Do you not agree that Dynamos best step is go back into junior football and start investing from the ground up into facilities?, I think limfan and I agree on this, and we reflect most kerry soccer peoples view on this matter. There is a general view in Kerry at the moment that Dynamos are on a downslope due to investing in in something the club simply cannot afford.

I'm not dodging viability. It was part of the reason I mooted the idea of a second division or something like that. Dynamos coped ok in the A Championship. I was suggesting they build in division at that level which would have similar costs to their involvement in the A Championship. Someone pointed out Tullamore have no interest in getting back involved in the League of Ireland. Good feedback to get and put paid to wishful thinking of a second division.

If Dynamos feel they can overcome the obstacles in the near future they'd be right to apply again in 2013 as they say. If not, they should concentrate on the KDL and in terms of the Munster Senior League which is basically a Cork League as said by citybone, discussions should take place to get that linked to district leagues across the province?