Does the success of one team in Europe benefit the league as a whole?

**A N Mouse** · 02/08/2011, 6:04 PM

Originally Posted by marinobohs

Fine RE shels-although it was not cheating as most here define it - no rules were broken by Shels. Totally disagree RE athletics thing (and appears to contradict above clarification). What Ben Johnsn did was cheating - he broke the rules of the sport. What Shels did was stupid - no rules broken. Incidentally, issue for another day but what Ollie Byrne was doing was hardly a state secret (even if extent of it was) but dont recall any opposition from Shels fans
So an Irish club qualifying for group stages would boost football here but as (in your opinion) FAI wont get off rearends it wont boost football here ?

It hasn't been mention above but, I believe, it's generally accepted that you can break the rules in deed or in spirit.

A lot of these financial shenanigans most definitely fall into the latter category - Man City's stadium naming right are a great example of this. So while they aren't cheating in terms of actually breaking any rules, they are cheating by gaming the system in their favour. Usually the door gets closed on these loopholes. (As an aside I think fifa have actually punished teams for, on field, breaking the spirit of the game/rules)

While an Irish team qualifying for the group stages of a uefa competition would, financially, throw the cat among the pigeons. Without using the money wisely it would likely result in another shels scenario, as they would need to repeatedly qualify in order for any kind of major increase in spending to be sustainable. And the ranking should be affected in such a way as to make it easier for other teams to emulate the success.

**redarmyfaction** · 02/08/2011, 7:47 PM

The Danish Superliga increased its average attendance from just under 4000 in 2001 now to over 8000 now, FCK dominted the intervening years winning I think 7 from 10 and competing at a top level inEurope. So it is possible, if you have football fans, which I think we may not.

**Dodge** · 02/08/2011, 9:52 PM

Originally Posted by redarmyfaction

The Danish Superliga increased its average attendance from just under 4000 in 2001 now to over 8000 now, FCK dominted the intervening years winning I think 7 from 10 and competing at a top level inEurope. So it is possible, if you have football fans, which I think we may not.

Whats the average without FCK? I think their average is about 20k.

**Oldred** · 02/08/2011, 9:53 PM

The Danish Superliga increased its average attendance from just under 4000 in 2001 now to over 8000 now, FCK dominted the intervening years winning I think 7 from 10 and competing at a top level inEurope. So it is possible, if you have football fans, which I think we may not.

The Danish FA do'nt have to compete with a "GAA like" organisation for crowds. So, you're probably right that we just do'nt have the numbers, except maybe in Dublin.

**legendz** · 02/08/2011, 10:09 PM

The Danish FA surely have other sports to compete with. Is olympic handball a major game over there? European football is not the cure for all the ills of the league but it is certainly good for the league. If both Rovers gain a higher profile from their European football, it should have some knock on affect that their away games would draw bigger crowds for the home team. That in turn gives the home team a chance to work on growing their support. If either of the Rovers were playing a game within my region, I'd definitely want to be going. What was the attendance at the Rovers game tonight? I'm guessing about 6000? If the Premier could ever get an average attendance in and around that figure it would be decent progress for the league.

**pineapple stu** · 03/08/2011, 8:11 AM

Originally Posted by Oldred

The Danish FA do'nt have to compete with a "GAA like" organisation for crowds. So, you're probably right that we just do'nt have the numbers, except maybe in Dublin.

The handball final drew a crowd of 36000+ just this year.

Originally Posted by Dodge

Whats the average without FCK? I think their average is about 20k.

Attendance stats here for 2011 and here for 2001. The actual average crowd increase is from just under 6000 to just over 7000 (though this year is the lowest since 2002, partly because Aarhus got relegated).

**Spudulika** · 03/08/2011, 8:54 AM

Maybe we're talking about apples and oranges here in terms of crowds. Anybody been to a Danish ground? Those who have will comment that they're rather more attractive that what we have in Ireland.

**Dodge** · 03/08/2011, 9:10 AM

Well its a chicken and egg situation. IF LOI clubs were averaging 4k per game, I'm sure we could quickly develop our facilities to help drive further growth

But we're not, and we've sod all investment from TV and sponsors (unlike the danes), so we're left scraping around

**Eminence Grise** · 03/08/2011, 11:45 AM

To answer the OP: in my opinion, no.

Until every club in the league can go for three consecutive seasons without threatening financial meltdown and at least breaking even, I’m sceptical that there are enough people with the money smarts to help a club dominate. Like a kid in a sweetshop, too many clubs have a track record of impulse spending that ends up in tears and needing strong, nasty-tasting medicine.

The temptation would be to invest in players to qualify again next year (if 42 week contracts can actually be called an investment, but that’s a debate for another day...). Eventually – injuries, form, new manager, etc - that stops working. Patient, sensible building from the ground-up– youth teams, ground improvements, fan facilities, training facilities, investment in revenue streams (they don’t even have to be football-related) – seems to be the exception rather than the norm.

I’d like to think that a team in the EL or CL group stages would attract better players, but just as likely is that the kind of players needed to raise the league would still prefer to go to similarly ranked leagues where the facilities are better and all/most clubs are fulltime, so the only result would be that the best players already in the league would be hoovered up by the breakthrough club on inflated wages, and the madness of the last few years would begin again.

**punkrocket** · 03/08/2011, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

....partly because Aarhus got relegated).

Madness.

**Mr A** · 03/08/2011, 1:20 PM

In the middle of our street.

**Mario** · 03/08/2011, 4:11 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

Whats the average without FCK? I think their average is about 20k.

Current league average ~ 8000

12 team league so total attendences = 12 * 8000 = 96000

Suppose FCK get 20000 average so 96000 - 20000 = 76000

Wikipedia saying Brondy get 16000 average

So 76000 - 16000 = 60000

60000 / 10 = 6000 is average gate minus big two clubs

Suppose take Rovers and Derry, Sligo or Pats out of Premier Division and I doubt the average here is barely 1000.

So your average Danish team get maybe 6 times ish the average LOI gate!!!

**BonnieShels** · 03/08/2011, 4:32 PM

Originally Posted by Mr A

In the middle of our street.

Damn. You.

**harleyleeds** · 03/08/2011, 5:31 PM

Originally Posted by Mario

Current league average ~ 8000

12 team league so total attendences = 12 * 8000 = 96000

Suppose FCK get 20000 average so 96000 - 20000 = 76000

Wikipedia saying Brondy get 16000 average

So 76000 - 16000 = 60000

60000 / 10 = 6000 is average gate minus big two clubs

Suppose take Rovers and Derry, Sligo or Pats out of Premier Division and I doubt the average here is barely 1000.

So your average Danish team get maybe 6 times ish the average LOI gate!!!

Twice the population density as well . so 3 times. and no GAA , dont see handball as a fair comparison. Closer urban areas make better rivalries unlike ROI with teams like Rovers so far away from all others.

**nigel-harps1954** · 03/08/2011, 8:41 PM

Originally Posted by harleyleeds

Twice the population density as well . so 3 times. and no GAA , dont see handball as a fair comparison. Closer urban areas make better rivalries unlike ROI with teams like Rovers so far away from all others.

Why don't you see handball as a fair comparison?

Off topic I know, but had a few die hard EPL fans who couldn't give a feck about LOI ask me about the match last night and how they enjoyed it. "Sure there was a difference in class but it was a good game" and suchlike. Almost refreshing to hear from the same fans who scoff at me watching Harps week in week out which was strange for me.

**harleyleeds** · 03/08/2011, 8:54 PM

Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

Why don't you see handball as a fair comparison?

Off topic I know, but had a few die hard EPL fans who couldn't give a feck about LOI ask me about the match last night and how they enjoyed it. "Sure there was a difference in class but it was a good game" and suchlike. Almost refreshing to hear from the same fans who scoff at me watching Harps week in week out which was strange for me.

looking at a few things about it and numbers didnt seem to compare but of course i could be wrong

As a sport with about 120,000 active players handball is the 4th most popular sport in Denmark and the Danish Handball Association as we know it today was founded on 2 June 1935 and will celebrate its 75th birthday just before the Euro 2010.

**Dodge** · 04/08/2011, 8:16 AM

Originally Posted by Mario

So your average Danish team get maybe 6 times ish the average LOI gate!!!

For the record I was asking as I was curious. I've been to football in Denmark. no doubt at all, their League is a priority there

**nigel-harps1954** · 04/08/2011, 1:33 PM

Originally Posted by harleyleeds

looking at a few things about it and numbers didnt seem to compare but of course i could be wrong

As a sport with about 120,000 active players handball is the 4th most popular sport in Denmark and the Danish Handball Association as we know it today was founded on 2 June 1935 and will celebrate its 75th birthday just before the Euro 2010.

There isn't exactly overwhelming numbers attending inter-county GAA games anymore. Donegal v Kildare had 39,000 at it and outside of Dublin was one of the highest attended games this year. Given this was an All-Ireland quarter final you may have expected a lot more in the ground.
I think its a very fair comparison between Handball in Denmark and GAA in Ireland.
If you asked the Irish public, football would most definitely be the most popular sport too, yet the average attendance of the national league must be no more than 1500-2000 between the 2 divisions.

**DannyInvincible** · 04/08/2011, 1:36 PM

Thought this might be somewhat relevant: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/14402785.stm

The SPL's chief executive, Neil Doncaster, is basically outlining why Rangers' dropping out of the Champions League will affect not just that club financially, but the whole SPL.

It has cost them a guaranteed £8m in prizemoney plus TV revenue.

"It's a huge disappointment for Rangers fans but also has an impact on the whole of the SPL," said Doncaster.

...

There is also the loss of match-day revenue, but it is from television income that the greatest loss from not qualifying for the Champions League is felt.

A large part of the distributed revenue from the Champions League is linked to the "market pool", the distribution of which is determined by the value of the television market in each country which for British clubs is high.

"With a team in the group stages of the Champions League, that means much larger solidarity payments from Uefa for all our clubs," chief executive Doncaster told BBC Radio 5 live.

"With Rangers going into the play-offs for the Europa League, that means much smaller payments for our clubs."

Despite there being no Scottish team in the group stage of the Champions League for the first time since 2002-03, Doncaster defended the quality of the SPL.

"We've got players like David Goodwillie who has just gone to Blackburn for a multi-million pound sum," he said.

"And we've certainly got a very good representation of managers south of the border."

Interesting way to big up the SPL. Times are certainly desperate.

**legendz** · 04/08/2011, 2:29 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

Well its a chicken and egg situation. IF LOI clubs were averaging 4k per game, I'm sure we could quickly develop our facilities to help drive further growth

But we're not, and we've sod all investment from TV and sponsors (unlike the danes), so we're left scraping around

It's chicken and egg alright. 4k should be attainable for a good number of clubs. Leaving out UCD, the four Dublin clubs, Derry, Sligo and three Munster clubs should see that as an attainable. Not easy in practice I know but I don't think it's an unrealistic target. If all goes well for Limerick with the return to their spiritual home it's an achievable target.