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Thread: Scotland at the crossroads

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    Seems there are talks of Federalism and Devo-max now on the table this week.

    Hopefully the Scots see fit to tell them to f-off at this stage.

    The SNP wanted other options on the ballot 2 years ago but they were refused. Hate that!

    Incidentally Stephen Harper, the Clown Prince of Calgary and the Prime Minister of Canada has weighed in opposing independence. If I was a No voter that would sway me to yes.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ependence.html
    It's hilarious watching countries who have achieved independence from Britain backing the union. No sense of irony there at all. Obviously his stance is totally based on Quebec but still.

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    As someone who's lived in both Australia and Canada I could never quite get the fawning. It's bizarre.

    Harper is a goon though.
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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter View Post
    Latest poll gives "Yes" a slight lead: http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0906/641...-independence/
    That's quite something. I really hadn't expected that. YouGov polls tend to be generous to the 'no' vote as well.

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    Wonder if an unlikely Scottish win tonight would boost the "Yes" campaign? Or if a tanking could do the opposite?
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    Ethnicity isn't a concept that is based purely on genetic make-up or the alleged genetic differences between various peoples. The outmoded theory or construct of race has been well and truly debunked and shown to be biologically obsolete - genetic variation can be greater within supposed "races" than between them - but there are, nevertheless, differences between different groups of peoples by virtue of their very existence. From different experiences grow different traditions and cultures. That doesn't necessarily have to be a negative or divisive thing. I'm not necessarily saying that nationalism is the best ideology by which humanity should organise itself or around which it should arrange its societies either, but national cultures can also be progressive, celebratory and bonding in nature. Obviously, ethnic nationalism can often take on a much more nasty face than its civic cousin, but it's no reason to dismiss the entire concept of nation as being completely flawed relative to all other ideologies. It's as much or as little a perception-based human construct as any other human ideology really.

    There's an Ulster-Scots community in the Laggan district of east Donegal along the border with Derry. Despite many of those in this community having been born and bred south of the border, they don't culturally identify as Irish. Rather, they culturally identify as British, and that's fair enough. Who's to say their misguided? DUP members, Maurice Devenney, Willie Hay and Basil McCrea are some prominent members from this community. Their British identity has no official recognition (unlike the mirror nationalist community across the border in the north, who were similarly "caught on the wrong side of the border" upon partition, but who do have official recognition of their Irish identity), but I wouldn't feel it was my place to deny this community their wish to culturally identify however they wish. National identity can transcend state borders and boundaries. My own father was born in Tyrone, officially part of the UK, but he has never identified as anything other than Irish. It's the same for the broader nationalist community in the north. Culture and national identity are fluid concepts; there are no hard and fast rules as to what is and isn't a valid cultural identity.
    I understand completely what you are saying but that kind of mindset by those "groups/communities/identities" is illusionary. Lets say we take a person from the Ulster Scots and take one person from the Irish and they never told about the history of either groups, what then those one call itself? The notion of these groups gives the people a feeling that they are different, superior, patriotic etc. and gives a meaning to their lives that otherwise would be boring and pointless. Some may think that these groups have positive elements to them, and they may well be right but in saying that you have to look at the other side, it causes division amongst people which on larger scales causes wars. So for me, the fact that these groups cause division/wars is something that this world can do without.

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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    So the latest poll from TNS has the yes and no camps tied at 41% each if you exclude don't knows.

    It's been a remarkable few days.

    Interestingly the Devo-max timetable should be announced today.

    Offers of Home Rule in 2014...interesting.
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    My latest on this thoroughly compelling campaign:
    http://www.krank.ie/category/opinion...ce-referendum/
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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBoss View Post
    I understand completely what you are saying but that kind of mindset by those "groups/communities/identities" is illusionary. Lets say we take a person from the Ulster Scots and take one person from the Irish and they never told about the history of either groups, what then those one call itself? The notion of these groups gives the people a feeling that they are different, superior, patriotic etc. and gives a meaning to their lives that otherwise would be boring and pointless.
    If that's the case, what human feeling, sentiment, emotion, identity, culture or ideology wouldn't be an "illusion" or a manufactured/notional means of escaping this boredom and futility you mention? You appear to be distinguishing the ideology of nationalism from other ideologies, or singling it out as being particularly or uniquely flawed. That would imply that you feel there may be other ideologies that aren't illusory and flawed; if so, what ideologies are they? The ones to which you conveniently just happen to subscribe, surely not? I submit that any distinction you invoke will be no more than arbitrary. By your logic, all ideologies and feelings of connection could be said to be figments of our imagination.

    Just because something is a means of escape or a means for creating meaning, value or essence in one's life, it doesn't necessarily mean it is flawed and illusory; rather, the tool or mechanism of escape is perhaps itself the very fabric of real, meaningful life and human experience. Of course your test cases wouldn't know who they were if they were stripped of their histories and experiences - the things that define their essence - for they'd be blank and unblemished canvases. But no human is like that. Essence is an integral by-product of existence. By our very existence, life's environment moulds us and gives us essence; that's not something that can be denied or erased. It's those very histories and experiences that have made these people who they are. Their communal histories and experiences are very real for them and integral to their identities.

    Some may think that these groups have positive elements to them, and they may well be right but in saying that you have to look at the other side, it causes division amongst people which on larger scales causes wars. So for me, the fact that these groups cause division/wars is something that this world can do without.
    I suspect national identities are more an effect rather than a cause of division. People will always be divided by interests and will always construct (wittingly or organically/unwittingly) and exploit conflicting ideologies or dogmas to morally justify and reinforce those respective interests.

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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    My daily missive on the referendum:

    Six Points of Separation: The Scottish Independence Referendum

    So up from London they came; David, Ed and Nick, determined to show the Scots that they really really wanted them to stay part of the United Kingdom. On top of that, Lord (John) Prescott, former Deputy Prime Minister under Tony Blair, made an appearance. The big guns are out for Better Together. On the other side of the debate, Yes Scotland continued the grassroots contact that has served them so well so far. No change there.

    Meanwhile in England, there was a bit of a kerfuffle made over the differentiation of the Scottish and English editions of national newspapers, most notably The Daily Mail, having different headlines and policies towards published articles and “feelings” towards the referendum in Scotland compared that that in England. This is exactly the same as what happened to the Daily Express back in April when, in England, it stated that their would be a “Pension Shock For Millions” whereas in Scotland the headline state that “Pensions [were] Safer In [the] UK”. Hardly what could be called unbiased coverage one would think.

    The big news on the trail today was, of course, the Survation poll for the Daily Record which showed a 6-point gap in favour of No when the undecideds were omitted. Whilst this may appear to be a huge jump from the last two days, the interesting thing to note is that the Survation poll has consistently undervalued the Yes side and has shown only a 1-point change in the “don’t knows” since last month. It also shows a huge 6-point swing (Yes +3%; No -3%) since the last poll.

    The smart money is on a race that is still too close to call and the perceived wisdom that the flight of Ed, David and Nick to England’s Attic was as a result of some private polling which shows a flight of undecided voters to the Yes camp over the last two weeks.

    All-in-all, the effect of their arrival seems to chime with the panic that is being felt across the Better Together camp that they could indeed find themselves on the losing side. With only seven days left until polling day, this campaign will get nastier and nastier as the tension mounts.

    The campaign is truly on a knife edge and that knife has killed the UK as we know it.
    Scotland’s presence in the UK is still very much up-for-grabs.
    http://www.krank.ie/category/n_ca/wo...ce-referendum/
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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Yes in the lead according to ICM poll:
    http://postimg.org/image/a2trwatst/
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    If that's the case, what human feeling, sentiment, emotion, identity, culture or ideology wouldn't be an "illusion" or a manufactured/notional means of escaping this boredom and futility you mention? You appear to be distinguishing the ideology of nationalism from other ideologies, or singling it out as being particularly or uniquely flawed. That would imply that you feel there may be other ideologies that aren't illusory and flawed; if so, what ideologies are they? The ones to which you conveniently just happen to subscribe, surely not? I submit that any distinction you invoke will be no more than arbitrary. By your logic, all ideologies and feelings of connection could be said to be figments of our imagination.

    Just because something is a means of escape or a means for creating meaning, value or essence in one's life, it doesn't necessarily mean it is flawed and illusory; rather, the tool or mechanism of escape is perhaps itself the very fabric of real, meaningful life and human experience. Of course your test cases wouldn't know who they were if they were stripped of their histories and experiences - the things that define their essence - for they'd be blank and unblemished canvases. But no human is like that. Essence is an integral by-product of existence. By our very existence, life's environment moulds us and gives us essence; that's not something that can be denied or erased. It's those very histories and experiences that have made these people who they are. Their communal histories and experiences are very real for them and integral to their identities.

    I suspect national identities are more an effect rather than a cause of division. People will always be divided by interests and will always construct (wittingly or organically/unwittingly) and exploit conflicting ideologies or dogmas to morally justify and reinforce those respective interests.
    All my points refer solely to nationalism (due to this thread) and reasons I feel why it is outdated caveman style of living our lives, I never implied that the other ideologies are better or worse cause I never made any claim to that. I do however agree that all ideologies are illusionary, it fails to make an individual think for themselves. We should all have political viewpoints independent of groups/ideologies etc., cause we have to as an intelligent species be able to live our lives to the best we can, unfortunately nowadays most people who live on this planet are just happy to sit back and allow this fake nationalism to control their lives. I think I've made my point.
    Last edited by TheBoss; 15/09/2014 at 7:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBoss View Post
    All my points refer solely to nationalism (due to this thread) and reasons I feel why it is outdated caveman style of living our lives, I never implied that the other ideologies are better or worse cause I never made any claim to that. I do however agree that all ideologies are illusionary, it fails to make an individual think for themselves. We should all have political viewpoints independent of groups/ideologies etc., cause we have to as an intelligent species be able to live our lives to the best we can, unfortunately nowadays most people who live on this planet are just happy to sit back and allow this fake nationalism to control their lives. I think I've made my point.
    Ha, yes, I think you have.

    The referendum is as much about enhancing democracy as it is about the coming of age of a nation though. As an aside, I've found it interesting that Scottish nationalism and unionism aren't really aligned to ethnicity or religion in the same way that Irish nationalism and unionism broadly are. George Galloway, of Irish Catholic descent, for example, has often made a case for 32-county Irish republicanism, yet he's a staunch Union-supporting socialist in terms of Scotland's place in the UK. Obviously, the two nation's respective histories and interactions/conflicts with England/Britain have influenced that, but interesting nonetheless.

    Dan Snow of the 'No'/'Better Together' campaign was arguing yesterday that it didn't make sense to divide an island into two separate political jurisdictions. The irony of the situation was completely lost on him as he made the claim whilst donning a pro-Union t-shirt featuring a partitioned Ireland. He made no case for the re-unification of Ireland, meanwhile.

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    Just glancing at the odds today, PP pretty set on the likelihood of a "No", given as 77% chance. Just don't see it happening.

    It'll be interesting to see how fast Cameron actually does try and implement "Devo Max", or if it was a just a fake carrot on a stick, left unimplemented by the time the next GE comes around.
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    Yeah i also had a quick gander at the PP odds, bit surprising, but they have got it wrong before with elections (Obama/LMF)

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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    Ha, yes, I think you have.

    Dan Snow of the 'No'/'Better Together' campaign was arguing yesterday that it didn't make sense to divide an island into two separate political jurisdictions. The irony of the situation was completely lost on him as he made the claim whilst donning a pro-Union t-shirt featuring a partitioned Ireland. He made no case for the re-unification of Ireland, meanwhile.
    He should have a look at this list of divided islands. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_divided_islands There are a lot of them and the one divided between Germany and Poland caught my eye. Never knew that.

    I suspect Celtic supporters will be voting to stay in the UK for if Scotland exits, that's their last chance of playing in the EPL.
    Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.

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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OwlsFan View Post
    He should have a look at this list of divided islands. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_divided_islands There are a lot of them and the one divided between Germany and Poland caught my eye. Never knew that.

    I suspect Celtic supporters will be voting to stay in the UK for if Scotland exits, that's their last chance of playing in the EPL.
    Not necessarily. Why would union, or the lack thereof, make a difference there? FIFA/UEFA already consider Scotland and England as distinct footballing territories anyway. Furthermore, there are numerous examples in world football of clubs from one jurisdiction playing in the league of another state/jurisdiction; Derry City, for example.

    Interestingly, a lot of Celtic fans are wary of the SNP and Scottish nationalism, or at least were a few months ago anyway: http://www.irishpost.co.uk/sport/ind...sh-nationalism

    I have a feeling many would be traditional Scottish Labour supporters - Glasgow being an old industrial/shipyard city - and, obviously, Labour are pro-Union. It's an economic thing rather than an ethno-cultural thing for them. Independence has seen support rise steadily in the last few weeks, mind, presumably from all sections of Scottish society. I don't think it'll happen myself though, but it will be a very tight call.

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    Betfair are recording a much higher volume of "Yes" bets, but more money being placed on "No" gambles. It's a bit confusing, the site is apparently paying out on some "No" bets already: https://betting.betfair.com/politics...98967&mpch=ads
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Invincible
    George Galloway, of Irish Catholic descent, for example, has often made a case for 32-county Irish republicanism, yet he's a staunch Union-supporting socialist in terms of Scotland's place in the UK

    Dan Snow of the 'No'/'Better Together' campaign was arguing yesterday that it didn't make sense to divide an island into two separate political jurisdictions. The irony of the situation was completely lost on him as he made the claim whilst donning a pro-Union t-shirt featuring a partitioned Ireland. He made no case for the re-unification of Ireland, meanwhile
    Gorgeous's allegiances are a bit inconsistent. Celtic one week, Dundee United the next. Ditto proud Socialist and MP for an ethnicity-based party.

    Dan Snow is a professional historian albeit not specialising in Ireland. He's oversimplifying/ bull****ting for his English audience.

    Quote Originally Posted by "Owls Fan
    I suspect Celtic supporters will be voting to stay in the UK for if Scotland exits, that's their last chance of playing in the EPL
    I doubt that

    a) Celtic-supporting voters tend to have that support as a major factor in their choice

    b) any political change tomorrow will make any difference to their presently negligible chance of joining the EPL

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter View Post
    It'll be interesting to see how fast Cameron actually does try and implement "Devo Max", or if it was a just a fake carrot on a stick, left unimplemented by the time the next GE comes around.
    Clearly a fake carrot. The SNP wanted "Devo Max" on the ballot as an option, and Westminster refused. Why would they implement it when they have no mandate for it?
    If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.

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