Shane Ferguson

[French Toasht]

A blogger on the GAWA website has posted this blog entitled: "Player Eligibility - The Myths, The Facts, The Truth."

Unfortunately however, it reads like another misinformed and under-researched Belfast Telegraph article.

http://thegawa.wordpress.com/2011/05...cts-the-truth/

[Not Brazil]

Im not aware of the agreement that appears to not have existed in the first place so maybe you could provide an official copy other than hearsay that didnt impress CAS either it appears.

You're very confused. You should read this carefully:

DAILY MIRROR 26th JANUARY 1999 (Alex McCreevy)

THE FAI and the IFA believe they have strengthened a gentleman's agreement to kerb the free movement of players between the associations.

They have also agreed that from next season a new cross-border cup competition will be staged between the European entrants of the Irish league and the National League.

The IFA last week admitted it was concerned by the loss of several Northern Ireland born youngsters who were opting to play for the Republic.

After a meeting of soccer's Irish governing bodies in Belfast yesterday, IFA President Jim Boyce said he was "extremely happy," with the outcome of all items on the agenda.

"The issue of Northern Ireland's eligible players opting to play for the Republic was discussed at length with the FAI," said Boyce.

"It was also stressed that if a player made an approach himself, there was little the FAI could do unless FIFA was to change legislation. That, we accept. But at least we have agreed to notify one another should this happen.''

FAI chief executive Bernard O'Byrne claimed there was no bitterness on either side when the matter was discussed.

"There was a very positive atmosphere about this meeting and we look forward to sitting down with the IFA again within the next six months," said O'Byrne.

In a statement released last night, the FAI claimed the Association is the "first to recognise the extensive development programme of the IFA and congratulate them on their progress to date.

"The FAI acknowledge that this is a cross-community scheme and undertook to continue its policy of not approaching players born in Northern Ireland for the Republic of Ireland international teams.

"However, any player that opts to declare for the Republic of Ireland and notifies the FAI of this will be considered for selection."

[Not Brazil]

Hopefully some day there will be a united Irish football team and then football fans in both countries could regularly watch Ireland in major tournaments.

Anyone born in Ireland can play for the South - there is, therefore, no need to dispense with the representative teams of the IFA.

You wouldn't want to deny choice, would you?

Can you not respect the choice of players who don't want to play for the FAI teams?

[Not Brazil]

Unfortunately however, it reads like another misinformed and under-researched Belfast Telegraph article.

http://thegawa.wordpress.com/2011/05...cts-the-truth/

It has not been well documented however, that Northern Ireland can also choose players from other association territories if a player holds a British passport. The associations in question are of course the Scottish FA, Welsh FA, and The FA (English). The only obstacle to prevent this from happening is a ‘Gentleman’s Agreement’ which exists between the Home Nations. The agreement states that a player must have “engaged in a minimum of five years education under the age of 18 within the territory of the relevant association” or have a legitimate bloodline to the relevant territory up to and including grandparents.

This bit is balls.

The "Gentlemans Agreement" is, in fact, Article 16 of the FIFA Statutes. It is not a "Gentleman's Agreement".

[Not Brazil]

Of course they will be referred to as English. What do you think they will be called by the random football fan in say Brazil?Great Britons maybe or united kingdomers?

In such an eventuality, I imagine the team would be called the "United Kingdom", and the players referred to as "British".

Interestingly, people born in Northern Ireland, and their offspring, would be eligible to play for such a team, regardless of the constitutional position on this island.

[BonnieShels]

Hopefully some day there will be a united Irish football team and then football fans in both countries could regularly watch Ireland in major tournaments. The North will always produce very decent players and occasionally great players like Blanchflower and Best that could make a massive difference to the Republic. I don't buy this notion that it's a class thing that differentiates rugby and soccer and that the "rugby crowd" up North are different to the "football crowd". Boxing is the most working class sport of all and we have a United Ireland boxing team in the Olympics.

I think that there is ignorance as to how we came to have 2 associations in Ireland in the first place. There have been, up to now, no schism amongst all governing bodies except in soccer. It's a shame that it came to pass when it did but it happened and we need to forget about it and work with what we have. I would personally love to see a united team one day however that's in the future along with all the other unknowns like a lotto win that I could have next September or a Pan-Celtic Union with Scotland.

[Stuttgart88]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Ferguson's decision being publicised is delayed until after the Carling Cup.

[Stuttgart88]

or a Pan-Celtic Union with Scotland.

We're not even Celts according to "The Story of Ireland", Fergal (now very fat) Keane's history of Ireland on BBC.

[BonnieShels]

We're not even Celts according to "The Story of Ireland", Fergal (now very fat) Keane's history of Ireland on BBC.

Och aye... Sure the term Celt is so generic as to render itself meaningless.

[DannyInvincible]

I'd be delighted if Shane declared for us. He's clearly a lad with great potential. Been reading this thread over the last few weeks and I have to say I have alot of sympathy with Northern Ireland losing so many players to the South. Obviously, I would feel that Northern Irish Catholics or indeed Protestants have a right to play with the Republic and I'm delighted that they want to play for us, but I can empathise with the North losing a large bulk of talented lads, especially if they have used Northern Irish underage sides to get moves to England or put themselves in the shop window. For example lets just imagine a brilliant young player declaring for the North who is born in Dublin after playing with our underage teams. We wouldn't be very happy about it.

You're falling into the trap of viewing these individuals as the "property" of associations. You can only lose something if it was your property in the first place. Irish nationals born in the north are just as entitled to play for us as they are to play for the IFA so, technically, they're not losing them to us as neither association has more right to lay claim to them in the first place.

He wasn't born in Dublin, but Johnny Gorman played for us at youth level before being "poached" ( ) by the IFA. Gorman's choice; no major fuss.

I don't buy this notion that it's a class thing that differentiates rugby and soccer and that the "rugby crowd" up North are different to the "football crowd". Boxing is the most working class sport of all and we have a United Ireland boxing team in the Olympics.

There are very different (what I'll call) spectator dynamics at play behind support in boxing and support in "tribal sports" such as rugby or football where the community's identity is channelled through the team who are primarily acting not just as representatives of the community or nation but as the nation itself. In football, for example, the Irish team will be referred to as "Ireland"; not as "Shay Given, Kevin Kilbane, Richard Dunne et al". The working class has always tended to be more partisan in its nationalist convictions than the middle class; part of the reason why, along with the existence of an Ulster rugby team (much like how Barcelona might be seen as representatives of the Catalan identity in Spain) and the fact that rugby fans have never known any different, the all-island international rugby team isn't really a major issue. Furthermore, NI football fans have continued to support the team of the original association on the island, even if it now just represents NI. They've become married to it as a representative of what is now "[their] wee country", as another poster pointed out. On the other hand, Irish rugby fans in the north have never had an opportunity to support a NI international rugby team.

Meanwhile, I would argue that boxing support is focused much more on the individual personality involved, in spite of it being a working class sport. Wayne McCullough's fans will not be shouting on Ireland when he's fighting; they'll be shouting on Wayne McCullough. If he ever does return to the ring, that is.

[DannyInvincible]

A blogger on the GAWA website has posted this blog entitled: "Player Eligibility - The Myths, The Facts, The Truth."

Unfortunately however, it reads like another misinformed and under-researched Belfast Telegraph article.

http://thegawa.wordpress.com/2011/05...cts-the-truth/

I had hope it was going to be an interesting and somewhat unorthodox treatment of the issue when I read: "Many fans are using the term ‘sectarian poaching’ to describe the methods used by the Football Association of Ireland to entice players to represent the Republic of Ireland. In the Oxford English Dictionary the word ‘poaching’ is described as “stealing / thieving”."

It appeared that this notion might have been up for challenge, but then I read the very next bit: "In anyone’s language this is exactly what the Football Association of Ireland are doing with players eligible to the Irish Football Association. How can footballers who have been happy to represent Northern Ireland at various levels up to and including earning the honour of a full senior international cap, to then defect and play for the Republic after being approached by their representatives not be classed as theft?"

Ho hum... I dunno if I'd be bothered to go to town on it right now.

[ArdeeBhoy]

We're not even Celts according to "The Story of Ireland", Fergal (now very fat) Keane's history of Ireland on BBC.

Yeah, but that's the sort of revisionist sh*t, the likes of the DUP, the board's most rotund poster and every other clown will claim if it suits their agenda....

I"Many fans are using the term ‘sectarian poaching’ to describe the methods used by the Football Association of Ireland to entice players to represent the Republic of Ireland. In the Oxford English Dictionary the word ‘poaching’ is described as “stealing / thieving”."

It appeared that this notion might have been up for challenge, but then I read the very next bit: "In anyone’s language this is exactly what the Football Association of Ireland are doing with players eligible to the Irish Football Association. How can footballers who have been happy to represent Northern Ireland at various levels up to and including earning the honour of a full senior international cap, to then defect and play for the Republic after being approached by their representatives not be classed as theft?"

Ho hum... I dunno if I'd be bothered to go to town on it

Think you should and treat those fools with the contempt they rightly deserve.

[seanfhear]

It would be simpler for FIFA if there was just one team representing the Island of Ireland.

Listening to a bunch of mostly white Paddy christians pretending to be so very different from one another must be a massive pain in the a**e when it goes on an on and on and on and on !

[DannyInvincible]

Think you should and treat those fools with the contempt they rightly deserve.

I've had a bit of time so have decided I'll try and correct what I view to be some glaring errors in that blog piece. It's riddled throughout with assumptive accusations, downright misinformation and scaremongering nonsense.

I felt compelled to write about the continual threat to the very existence of our national side, as the Football Association of Ireland continue their active perusal of footballers eligible for Northern Ireland.

There is no threat to the existence of the IFA or its team by the FAI's "active perusal", if even you could call it that. Not that there's anything wrong or shameful in the FAI taking an interest in players eligible to play for us anyway, surely. A few northern-born players will declare for us every now and again, but it's been happening for years, before even the Good Friday Agreement - something of which the author appears possibly unaware given the fact he gives mention to only those who've declared for us after Gibson made the headlines - and, yet, the IFA still exists.

The likes of Ger Crossley, Gerard Doherty, Mark McKeever and Tony Shields - all northern-born - played for FAI teams between 1995 and 1997. There have been countless others to play for us between the signing of the GFA and the Gibson saga.

The IFA will always have players willing to line out for its sides. Clearly, even some players from nationalist backgrounds will be prepared to continue to do so; see Niall McGinn, Paddy McCourt, Sammy Clingan, et cetera. That is their choice, whether it is for career reasons or that they're not really bothered with playing under the Ulster Banner or whatever.

How can footballers who have been happy to represent Northern Ireland at various levels up to and including earning the honour of a full senior international cap, to then defect and play for the Republic after being approached by their representatives not be classed as theft?

Because theft implies the possession or ownership of something stolen in the first place. International football is a wholly voluntary endeavour. There are no contractual or legal obligations involved. Players do not ever become the property of associations. Players are called up voluntarily on a game-to-game basis, receive training and instruction prior to that game and "pay" the association back with their services on the pitch. They owe nothing further in return, if even that is owed anyway. Just because a player might have played for NI at youth level doesn't dictate that he owes them a career of service at senior level. If he declares for the FAI he will receive training and instruction for them prior to each game for them and, likewise, return the favour with his services on the pitch.

Furthermore, theft also implies a sense of illegality. Everything here is fully above board and in line with the rules on the matter. Animals that are poached have no choice as to their fate. On the other hand, players who declare for Ireland do so of their own volition.

At least the guy had sense to refute the accusation of sectarianism as complete nonsense.

The Irish Football Association has spent time, money and resources in training and developing its players, not to mention the travel costs involved. The source of the Irish Football Association’s funds come directly from the fans purchasing tickets and merchandise, so the Green and White Army have every right to be annoyed and upset about the situation.

Does the nationalist tax-payer not contribute to IFA resources? Anyhow these paying fans will also have benefited from being able to watch and take enjoyment from the contributions of the players concerned if something quantifiable in return is what they're after.

It has not been well documented however, that Northern Ireland can also choose players from other association territories if a player holds a British passport. The associations in question are of course the Scottish FA, Welsh FA, and The FA (English). The only obstacle to prevent this from happening is a ‘Gentleman’s Agreement’ which exists between the Home Nations.

Oops... Before going to the effort of writing this, it probably would have been a good idea to at least have had a brief scan through articles 15 to 18 of FIFA's regulations governing the application of their statutes.

How could the supporter of any nation accept that a player who has earned a senior cap (albeit a non-tying friendly game) for one country be able to switch to another country to play his football?

A situation by no means absurd or unique to Adam Barton or Shane Ferguson. See the likes of Edgar Castillo or Jermaine Jones, for example. Furthermore, FIFA have amended and worded their rules specifically so a friendly game will not tie a player down, thus enabling him to switch association until he plays in a competitive game.

FIFA eligibility criteria state that a person may only qualify for the territory of an association if they are entitled to a passport of the relevant association, have a bloodline connection to the territory, have schooled in the territory for at least five years before the age of 18 or have lived continuously in the associations territory for X years or more.

No idea where this has come from; a combination of confused, misinformed and incorrect nonsense.

The Republic of Ireland’s rules for becoming an Irish citizen allow for this to happen more freely than other European nations, as anyone born on the island of Ireland is entitled to an Irish Passport. This also extends to immediate family members if they have a parent or grandparent born on the island. I am not clued up on Russian nationality criteria but I cannot see what is stopping the Russian FA from granting passports to those footballers from former member states of the U.S.S.R. Perhaps the Irish Football Association should begin investigating this avenue as it would surely open a can of worms.

I'd bet this guy is just making a sloppy assumption and hasn't the slightest notion what the apparent citizenship rules of these "other European nations" he's supposedly referring to are. At least he admits he's not clued up on Russian nationality law specifically.

Anyhow, it is the sovereign right of each nation to determine who its own nationals are. No international or European body has any issue whatsoever with Irish nationality law. To add to this, it even has the bilateral approval of the UK - a part of whose recognised territory over which it has extra-territorial effect - along with the NI electorate itself.

Look at Liam Boyce, another Northern Irish player that the Football Association of Ireland were apparently interested in. What did Nigel do? He made sure he was called up and capped in the 90th minute against Slovenia to tie the player to Northern Ireland. The same can be said for that of Johnny Gorman who was with the Republic youth set up for a while. Nigel saw huge potential and therefore capped the player as soon as possible, but the continual selection of the player after this is questionable.

I don't know if this is a case of unbelievable hypocrisy or if the guy suffers from an extreme lack of self-awareness. Either way, it's kind of unfortunate.

The Irish Football Association need to find out why these players are reluctant to represent Northern Ireland (although truth be told they are happy to until they are approached by the Football Association of Ireland).

A bit of evidence wouldn't go amiss when casually throwing accusations around. I know for a fact that Shane Duffy's switch was delayed by the FAI and Sean McCaffrey's refusal to act due to the sensitivities involved with calling up a northern-born player; this even in spite of the fact Duffy's father is Letterkenny-born. And given that the IFA breached what you might call a "gentleman's agreement" agreed by Jim Boyce and Bernard O'Byrne in 1999 by bringing the FAI to CAS over Daniel Kearns' switch, there's no moral reason as to why the FAI shouldn't approach eligible parties before they actively volunteer.

However, there is nothing wrong with flying the flag of Northern Ireland and nobody should be offended by it, after all it is the flag of the country and we are there to support Northern Ireland!

I wasn't aware the place had a flag. The IFA, however, choose to fly the unofficial and very-much-unionist Ulster Banner as their flag.

[DannyInvincible]

The Football Association of Ireland have an advantage in that they can ‘sell’ their national side to potential Northern Irish recruits with the promise of playing in a brand new (half empty!) stadium (Aviva) against the top sides in the world. There is no denying the fact that this promise will excite a young footballer as all Northern Ireland has to offer is a dilapidated old stadium (soon to be upgraded though) where we play the likes of Hungary and Norway on cold winter’s nights.

If this wasn't such a daft and strange cry for sympathy, I might take it remotely seriously.

Both teams play other teams of a similar standard; from both world-class to minnow level. Is he implying that NI get a raw deal with the opponents they’re pitted against or something? The players' own sense of Irishness is enough motivation for them; never mind shiny new stadiums.

It would appear that the French FA are having similar issues with players switching allegiances to African countries after they have had money invested in their development by the French. The outcome is a proposed reduction of the intake quota to 30% of players with African origin being allowed into French academies. The French situation is slightly different however, in two ways. The first is that France can and regularly do select players to represent them who have their origins in Africa. For example, their 1998 Word Cup winning squad contained quite a few such as Desailly and Zidane etc., so the traffic is both ways.

Africa isn't a solitary nation, so it doesn't necessarily go "both ways" at all. Replace "France" with "NI" and "Africa" with "Europe" and the situation is no different in that the IFA also can and do select players from other associations' territories insofar as they are eligible under the criteria outlined in article 16 of FIFA's regulations on the application of their statutes.

Also, Zinedine Zidane was born not in Africa, but in Marseilles to Algerian parents. Where did this myth originate and why does it persist, good God?

The second reason is that the French have a player pool than Northern Ireland can only dream of. France will always have players no matter how many abscond.

Makes no difference in principle. NI will always have players no matter how many "abscond".

Northern Ireland on the other hand will either become a completely Protestant football team, which will of course lead to the usual accusations of sectarianism, bigotry etc., or worst case scenario the team will cease to exist at all.

Hyperbolic scaremongering on both counts.

A single ‘Ireland’ football side is the dream for many on this island none more so than the Football Association of Ireland who are trying their utmost to seize power from the Irish Football Association.

Have the FAI ever expressed this to be an official desire or motive of theirs? And what have the FAI ever done of late to try and seize power from the IFA? Sounds like someone has a persecution complex...

Should the Irish Football Association begin asking its youth players to sign contracts stating that if the player decides to switch alliances to the Football Association of Ireland then the Irish Football Association will be owed compensation? A risky path to take in regards to human rights etc. but it is certainly one to look at.

International football is a voluntary activity. Talk of contracts and compensation is complete fantasy. Having a player sign a contract would invoke a catch-22 situation anyway. Beyond the hurdle of having a minor become party to a contract, such a contract, whilst, for the sake of argument, maybe having legal standing in the state would have no standing whatsoever under FIFA's statutes. It would be in breach of them and FIFA would in no way condone it as they expressly endorse the idea that not even a friendly game ought tie a player to an association. If a player breached this contract, it would make no difference to FIFA as such a contract wouldn't be regulated by their statutes. However, if the IFA then proceeded to have the contract upheld in a court of law after what they considered a breach by the player concerned in order to deny this player his right to switch association under the statutes, FIFA would promptly threaten to boot the IFA out of international competition for what would amount to political interference.

There is another option of dialogue and creating a ‘Gentleman’s Agreement’ with the Football Association of Ireland in that they will agree to not call up Northern Irish players if they have already been capped at U19 level or above. Then again the Football association of Ireland have not abided to ‘Gentleman Agreement’s’ in the past!

More dubious accusations without a hint of evidence… The IFA were the ones who breached the only thing close to a "Gentleman's Agreement" between the two associations that I know of.

Jim Boyce now the FIFA Vice-President should be fighting our cause at the top table. I urge him to forget about trying to form a British Olympic football team and concentrate on the sole issue of player poaching. I believe the Amalgamation of Northern Ireland Supporters Clubs will be in contact with him shortly if they have not already done so. This will be a slow process though so patience is required.

Well, that would be kind of pointless considering we all know how pleased Boyce was with circumstances agreed with Bernard O'Byrne in 1999.

To sum up, I hope that I have dispelled some of the rumours and myths surrounding the Northern Ireland player eligibility debate and that I have given you a good insight into how the fans of Northern Ireland feel about the dispute and the potential avenues to explore to put an end to it.

Hmm...

In the interim the Irish Football Association should cut ALL ties with the Football Association of Ireland until they show some class and act like the 207 other FIFA members in respecting other associations’ jurisdictions.

Erm, they do behave like the 207 other associations in respecting other associations' jurisdictions and adhering to FIFA's rules. It's not as if the IFA haven't called up players born in the territory of an association other than their own, but that's a different matter entirely from respecting another association's jurisdiction. I wouldn't accuse the IFA of disrespecting the FA's territory, for example.

[The Fly]

You had a 'bit' of time?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Danny, brilliant post that first one, POTY so far for me.
And the second up to the usual standard.

Top stuff.

Oh and what The Fly said!

[DannyInvincible]

I've posted below the blog piece a pretty much identical version of what I've written above, although it's now awaiting moderation, so I guess I'll have to wait and see if it appears.

[Gather round]

I wasn't aware the place had a flag. The IFA, however, choose to fly the unofficial and very-much-unionist Ulster Banner as their flag

Now you're just being silly. Good post otherwise

Also, Zinedine Zidane was born not in Africa, but in Marseilles to Algerian parents. Where did this myth originate and why does it persist, good God?

It's hardly a myth, more just a lazy shorthand. The writer (like plenty of others) doesn't bother to distinguish between first and second generation French-born. Or possibly just ignores what he doesn't like/ recognise?

It would be simpler for FIFA if there was just one team representing the Island of Ireland

Aye, like it would be simpler if there was just one team representing BeNeLux/ Scandinavia/ ex-Yugoslavia etc. etc. So actually it wouldn't, eh?

[DannyInvincible]

Now you're just being silly. Good post otherwise

When I saw you'd responded, I hadn't expected the flag part to be the only thing with which you'd take issue, never mind you passing an overall compliment.

Why do you say I'm being silly though? Fair enough, maybe it would have been more technically correct to say that NI has no unique flag of its own considering its institutions will use the Union Flag, but it is true that the flag the IFA use - the Ulster Banner - is associated with unionism/loyalism and doesn't possess any official status whatsoever, is it not? To claim it's in some way neutral is a misnomer surely?

It's hardly a myth, more just a lazy shorthand. The writer (like plenty of others) doesn't bother to distinguish between first and second generation French-born. Or possibly just ignores what he doesn't like/ recognise?

I took the writer to be distinguishing between French-born players of African descent who go on to play for African countries and African-born players who go on to play for France though. In the preceding few sentences, he was attempting to make a point about players apparently going "both ways" when it comes to the FFF and African associations. It seemed he was implying that Zidane was African-born as he appeared to be writing the example of him winning the World Cup with France in 1998 as a "vice versa" example to a French-born player with African roots switching allegiance to play for an African association, but maybe I misinterpreted what was written. Not that it's really that big of a deal. I have heard people haughtily claim Zidane was born in Algeria before, mind, when making some point about the diversity of the French national team and it kind of irks me by this point.