Jack Grealish

[paul_oshea]

Tets, give this fella a ban.

Are you the Gestapo now?

[tetsujin1979]

Well that too, but I was referring to the senior series of games, when he told management he didn't want to be selected yet.

Hmmm, that's a bit different from refusing a call up.
There was no indication from management of a call up during that meeting, at least that I'm aware of.

[Stuttgart88]

It's all semantics* really. While most Irish born / single nationality footballers would feel anytime is a good time to be called up, obviously there are complications in his case. It's too extreme to say he refused a call up, and clearly that soundbite suits TOWK's views on JG, but equally it'd be a bit "head in the sand" to think it's not a situation that warrants concern.

My own view is that it's not a straightforward case and O'Neill is playing the situation very well. I don't think Grealish is ready for the cauldron of Glasgow yet but a home friendly against the USA would be a useful intro to senior football should it transpire. It's not a simple case of saying if he's ready for one he's ready for the other.

*speaking of semantics I was very disappointed that the Financial Times didn't publish a letter I wrote recently. Some FT readers were arguing in the letter pages about the true meaning of "anti-Semitic" in context of the latest Israel military action in Palestine and whether being anti- Israeli military action was the same as being anti-Jewish, and a third guy pedantically pointed out that Arabs are also Semites, not just Jews, despite the common modern understanding of the term anti-Semite meaning being anti-Jewish.

I wrote that I found arguing over the true meaning of anti-Semitic boring. Did that make me anti-semantic?

I thought it was funny...

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

The majority of news media in Ireland wrote that he turned down a call up and what was inferred from the articles is that O'Neill and Keane wanted to call him up but understood and accepted his reasons for not accepting a call up. That's fairly standard diplomacy, granted it wasn't something taken for granted under Trapattoni.

The complication is that he (and his father) are unwilling to close the door on future England honors.

You make it sound like I am attacking Grealish when I am just being pragmatic. I'm trying to use more flowery words than "refused" but what would you really call it?

I understand that he is born and bred in England and has two countries chasing him but at the same time - and for the same reason - I am far more inclined to believe that it is an attachment to England and an unwillingness to close the door on them that is behind not making himself available to participate against Gibraltar, Germany and Scotland, rather than not being "ready for the size of the occasion" or "a competitive match coming too soon". The lad has played against Man City and Arsenal now, and with relish.

If all you get from what I am saying is that I am implying he is not attached to Ireland, using Ireland for career advancement and is some kind of mercenary then fair enough. I'd like to think it's a bit more nuanced than that.

[DannyInvincible]

What is the point in calling up a player for a friendly if he may not ever play in a meaningful game?

The idea would be to bring him in and show him the ropes, no? To make him feel welcome and to help him get a feel for what senior international football will be like. He's highly unlikely to switch to England at this point, but calling him into a friendly squad, nevertheless, can't do him or us any harm, can it? Especially not if it persuades him to forget about any residing smidgen of an intention that he might still harbour of playing for England. Would you rather we ignored him or what until he publicly declares his undying and irrevocable commitment to Ériu, Banbha and Fódhla?

Fair enough if people think the reason he doesn't want to be considered for Scotland is honestly because he doesn't think he's ready for a game of that caliber, a pretty unusual stance or perspective for a professional footballer to take.

Roy Keane seems to think the same, and possibly O'Neill, with whom the Grealish's had discussions. Can we be sure that Kevin Grealish's words weren't coloured by an accord reached with Martin or Roy to the effect that Jack would feature in the USA friendly squad rather than the competitive squad for Scotland. We don't know exactly what was discussed and agreed, and we can't fill the gaps in knowledge with our presumptions either.

Well that too, but I was referring to the senior series of games, when he told management he didn't want to be selected yet.

He pulled out of an under-21 squad in order to sign a new high-profile contract with Villa and to play in a friendly game for them - that's reasonable enough, putting faith in the explanation he offered, and was to Noel King's satisfaction - but he hasn't rejected any specific senior call-ups, as you imply. He informed O'Neill that he wasn't ready generally for senior international football - things were all coming a bit fast for him - and he wanted to focus on challenging for regular football at Villa for the mean time. O'Neill seemingly agreed and said he'd give him time. It would be naive not to acknowledge his eligibility for England, certainly, and the prospect, for him, of completely cutting off that option has surely been something playing away at the back of his mind, but I think it is grossly unfair to accuse the guy of stringing us along or deceiving us as to his true ambitions just because he might be a bit uncertain or timid to make an irreversible jump in our favour.

As I said before, such a stance as Grealish's is not unprecedented in international football. Ryan McLaughlin and Rory Donnelly did the same recently with the IFA but they were always committed to them, or at least McLaughlin was very keen to impress upon NI fans that his commitment should never have been in doubt; he just wanted to focus on progression at Liverpool.

[DannyInvincible]

The majority of news media in Ireland wrote that he turned down a call up and what was inferred from the articles is that O'Neill and Keane wanted to call him up but understood and accepted his reasons for not accepting a call up.

Did they? Quotes? Anyway, you don't have to be told not to believe every spin the media put on things surely? Sure we both know how some in the media twisted Robbie's words on eventual acceptance of retirement some day into a bullsh*t "I'll walk out on Trap!" story, don't we?...

If all you get from what I am saying is that I am implying he is not attached to Ireland, using Ireland for career advancement and is some kind of mercenary then fair enough. I'd like to think it's a bit more nuanced than that.

You have said things like that though during prior discussions, no?

[Stuttgart88]

I don't recall any single media outlet saying he refused a call up, not one. As I said, there's a fair amount of semantics associated with the situation and what was said but nobody in the O'Neill, Grealish or any other camp expressed the situation in terms of a call up or anything that was "refused". What was reported left it open for anyone inclined to push his agenda to say a call up was refused and that is what TOWK is doing.

Sure the situation is nuanced, that's what we've been saying all along. I have noticed very little appreciation of nuance in TOWKs contributions to this issue.

[Charlie Darwin]

Sorry to change the subject, but Grealish scored for Villa U21s tonight at home to Wolves.

[tetsujin1979]

The majority of news media in Ireland wrote that he turned down a call up and what was inferred from the articles is that O'Neill and Keane wanted to call him up but understood and accepted his reasons for not accepting a call up. That's fairly standard diplomacy, granted it wasn't something taken for granted under Trapattoni.

The complication is that he (and his father) are unwilling to close the door on future England honors.

You make it sound like I am attacking Grealish when I am just being pragmatic. I'm trying to use more flowery words than "refused" but what would you really call it?

I understand that he is born and bred in England and has two countries chasing him but at the same time - and for the same reason - I am far more inclined to believe that it is an attachment to England and an unwillingness to close the door on them that is behind not making himself available to participate against Gibraltar, Germany and Scotland, rather than not being "ready for the size of the occasion" or "a competitive match coming too soon". The lad has played against Man City and Arsenal now, and with relish.

If all you get from what I am saying is that I am implying he is not attached to Ireland, using Ireland for career advancement and is some kind of mercenary then fair enough. I'd like to think it's a bit more nuanced than that.

I'm aware they met, I'm aware that his future was discussed, but I'm not aware of a call up to the squad for either game in October. I've made the point elsewhere that there are multiple deductions to be made from any crumb of information that's been made public over the last few months. You can infer whatever you want, but anything posted in this thread is going to have to be backed up with either quotes from the player, management or a published article. You have 24 hours to either provide proof, or you can delete or edit your original post, or face an infraction.

[liamoo11]

Sorry to change the subject, but Grealish scored for Villa U21s tonight at home to Wolves.

I know it's only the reserves but good to c him scoring a long range effort needs to add that and goals in general to his game. Anyone know what's story with Graham Burke?

[Stuttgart88]

It looks like TOWK's latest tactic, apart from digging up old discredited arguments, is to cite media (official or social) sources to back up his argument, the authenticity of these sources being even more ambiguous, if not outright fictional,than the point he's trying to prove as fact.

[Stuttgart88]

Anyone know what's story with Graham Burke?

tne media is suggesting he's about to walk out on ireland and play for England once he qualifies through residency.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

I'm not going to involve myself in this debate or post in this thread anymore. Hold me to that.

What is the point when people keep reducing everything you say on the issue to soundbites, put words in your mouth, reduce you to a meme, twist everything you say, make overdramatic comments like "Would you rather we ignored him or what until he publicly declares his undying and irrevocable commitment to Ériu, Banbha and Fódhla?", make non-sequitur and passive aggressive comments about Robbie Keane and Richard Keogh that have absolutely nothing to do with Jack Grealish and when you now have to post every comment with the threat of being infracted hovering over you.

http://i.imgur.com/bkXGj2t.jpg

"though it is widely accepted that O'Neill would have brought him into the senior squad had Jack Grealish said that he was ready" (Granted this is Paul Rowan not John Fallon so don't take what he says as gospel). Also haven't seen quotes from O'Neill or Keane saying he wasn't going to be called up.

https://twitter.com/McDonnellDan/sta...97012990758912

"He felt comfortable playing under-age but it's totally different thing committing yourself at senior level."

Listen if he plays for Ireland great. If he plays for England best of luck to him. He's ours to lose, obviously. But it's not cut and dry yet. Amazing how much has changed in two months.

[tricky_colour]

Wrt Lambert's point about defence being the issue rather than in attack, they have scored only four goals all season FFS!

I thought Clark was ok last night and was even more of a goal threat than their own forwards. That Sanchez bloke passed the ball straight to a QPR guys feet for the second goal, having got away with an equally rubbish pass only a minute earlier. If it was cricket I'd be investigating spot fixing.

I thought Clark was blameless for both goals. In the Dunne thread it's said he might have been tighter for the first goal but he nearly blocked it and the shot was perfect, like Matt Holland in Niigata, starting the ball outside the post and drawing it back in. For the second Clark held his position to prevent a cut back to Hoylett(?) who was attacking the penalty box. Clark was careless in possession once or twice but was usually looking to use the ball positively and I don't think Cleverley and co helped him much by showing short as often as they could have.

Lambert must be off his rocker, it is hard to believe that comment is even serious, their goals conceded is
decent for a team in their position, Everton for example have conceded 3 more and all the teams below them
have conceded more and indeed two above.
There goal scoring record is truly shocking - 4!!
4 in 9 games the worst in the league.

I am surprised he is still in a job after his comments, how can someone with such bad judgement continue to be manager?
(and remember he signed Roy Keane too )

[DannyInvincible]

I'm not going to involve myself in this debate or post in this thread anymore. Hold me to that.

What is the point when people keep reducing everything you say on the issue to soundbites, put words in your mouth, reduce you to a meme, twist everything you say, make overdramatic comments like "Would you rather we ignored him or what until he publicly declares his undying and irrevocable commitment to Ériu, Banbha and Fódhla?", make non-sequitur and passive aggressive comments about Robbie Keane and Richard Keogh that have absolutely nothing to do with Jack Grealish and when you now have to post every comment with the threat of being infracted hovering over you.

C'mon, I was resorting to hyperbole for light effect, but there was a serious question nevertheless; do you think we should ignore him/leave him out in the cold until he comes round to committing to tying himself? And you can't seriously call foul given the tactics you've employed in debate on here. The threat of infraction spires from your incessant habit of jumping to concrete conclusions without any concrete grounds for doing so. An infraction is not something I'd be a fan of dishing out if I had the power, but tets has a responsibility to ensure debate is grounded in verifiable fact, so spare us the forlorn victim cry. If it compels you to double-check and back up some of your rasher assertions, that's a good thing for debate on here.

"though it is widely accepted that O'Neill would have brought him into the senior squad had Jack Grealish said that he was ready" (Granted this is Paul Rowan not John Fallon so don't take what he says as gospel). Also haven't seen quotes from O'Neill or Keane saying he wasn't going to be called up.

Do they make public announcements on other players that the public think they've considered calling up but haven't? And what Rowan says isn't quite the same as Grealish rejecting a senior call-up. There was no call-up for Grealish to reject.

[tetsujin1979]

I'm not going to involve myself in this debate or post in this thread anymore. Hold me to that.

Will do

What is the point when people keep reducing everything you say on the issue to soundbites, put words in your mouth, reduce you to a meme, twist everything you say, make overdramatic comments like "Would you rather we ignored him or what until he publicly declares his undying and irrevocable commitment to Ériu, Banbha and Fódhla?", make non-sequitur and passive aggressive comments about Robbie Keane and Richard Keogh that have absolutely nothing to do with Jack Grealish

That's exactly what you've done to all three players. Any statement made by them has been adapted to suit your own point of view. Anything that contradicts it is ignored

and when you now have to post every comment with the threat of being infracted hovering over you.

You're free to post whatever you want, as long as you can back it up. This is the only thread in the Ireland forum with that policy. It's not an unreasonable request to include proof with any allegation, and ensures the discussion does not descend into farce. Nobody else has a problem with the policy, and only two users have been threatened with an infraction since I introduced it.

http://i.imgur.com/bkXGj2t.jpg

"though it is widely accepted that O'Neill would have brought him into the senior squad had Jack Grealish said that he was ready" (Granted this is Paul Rowan not John Fallon so don't take what he says as gospel).

This goes back to what I said above, there was no call up, even the journalist admits the possibility of a call up was only "accepted", but you've turned this into a refusal on his part

Also haven't seen quotes from O'Neill or Keane saying he wasn't going to be called up.

Both Keane and O'Neill are reluctant to discuss Grealish at all. O'Neill has said very little about the meeting, and from what he has said it appears they spoke more about life in general than football. I've only seen Keane mention him in passing. As for not saying he wasn't going to be called up, is the absence of evidence the evidence of absence?

Listen if he plays for Ireland great. If he plays for England best of luck to him. He's ours to lose, obviously. But it's not cut and dry yet. Amazing how much has changed in two months.

From what I can tell nothing has changed in two months apart from his new contract - he's still playing for Villa, he's still only played for Ireland, he still hasn't confirmed his international allegiance.

[Charlie Darwin]

Relax lads, we can get the pitchforks back out:

Otis ‏@OtisMarlow 49m49 minutes ago
@RobBrennan82 Met Grealish the other night , he said he was still undecided when I told him he should play for England not Ireland !

[Deckydee]

http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-30701288.html

[SwanVsDalton]

Brian Kerr wants a Grealish call-up and says he's the best underage Irish attacking player since Duff and Keane

[paul_oshea]

Kerr, who coached both Duff and Keane to success at the 1998 U16 European Championships also told TheScore.ie that Grealish’s swagger should not mask his ability to work for the greater good of the team.

Something seriously wrong here...