Roy can have a caustic wit, but I always got the impression he and the Grealishs were on good terms, especially as Roy was at Villa. I don't get the sense the comment has alienated them at all. I'm sure they're well used to Roy being forthright.Originally Posted by DeLorean
Half joking, half serious I would have though but, ultimately, unnecessary and unhelpful. Maybe I'm wronging Keane, he obviously knows the situation and understands his relationship with the Grealish's better than I do, but it seemed a risky tactic. Maybe it was just good bants between chums
This was Martin's opinion on it: https://soundcloud.com/breakingnews-...-jack-grealish
Roy said he had a lot of time for Jack here at the end of last month: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/foo...-decision.html
Roy's comment about Grealish senior was in November, but Jack had plenty of positive sentiment for Roy and his banter last September: http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footba...r-jack-4201309
Having checked out exactly what was said again, maybe it was something that could have needlessly stirred tension or caused a bit of unnecessary awkwardness, but I'd guess there was also a degree of banter to it. Roy appreciates the situation in which Jack finds himself and respects Jack's right to choose; I recall him having cordially said to Kevin Grealish something the lines of it not being the worst problem in the world to have a choice like that.
Yeah I agree it hasn't seemed to have done any damage, I just remember thinking it had a harmful potential at the time. If it was MON that said it I would have definitely assumed that he knew the situation and Kevin Grealish well enough that he could get away with it, but with Keane you just don't know.
Your missing the point Danno, as soon as SSL got a call up he took it, as everyone who knew him knew that was all he ever wanted to do.
As for Jacky, he's holding out for a senior England call up, lets see if he takes it, if offered.
If he wanted to play for Ireland then why didn't he accept it when he was offered a call up?
Don't give me any if this, focusing on his club career as Lambo was never going to play him.
He should of used an Ireland call up to prove to Villa he could handle playing at a higher level.
Jacky hasn't done anything in the game yet, anyone who has played will tell you the sign of a good player is one who can get through his second full season of playing regular games and still compete.
By then most teams and defendes will have worked you out, that's when the real test starts, as you have to improve and add consistency.
I think Jacky will become another Lee Hendrie a few good games and the odd decent season before fading away as a result of believing the hype and bad advice by his relatives and hangers on.
Bottom line, if you genuinely want to play for your country you accept it, you don't keep making excuses.
But hey Danno dont let the truth get in the way of your opinion.
Well the rather obvious third option is that he has strong feelings for both and genuinely doesn't know which he wants to declare for.
Doc
That is the most insightful comment you have ever made. And I agree with most of it.
St Ledger only ever wanted to play for Ireland though.
Not sure if I believe that TBCH.
I was talking about the Grealish situation with my brother. I brought up Kilbane's comments re: always knowing he wanted to play for Ireland. My brother responded that Kilbane never had a realistic chance of playing for England.
I suppose you have got to be pragmatic about it. Kilbane or St Ledger can say or think what they want but Grealish is potentially good enough to play for two teams - unlike them.
Grealish has a bit longer to wait and see how things develop now with this U-21 insurance policy.
You could say the senior call ups were a cynical attempt to tie him down but I don't believe they were even competitive games. If he was ruling with his heart and not his head this would be irrelevant but I get the impression Jack (and Kevin) are being very career oriented with this decision.
I would just love to know why Grealish never got in touch with Keane and O'Neill to tell them what he allegedly discussed with Noel King. It would have saved a lot of needless hassle.
I am just going to assume that I was imagining the U-21 call up with Noel King that he turned down after this conversation in September.
Your starting to sound like some sad bloke who is in denial about his wife banging his best mate from work.
Oh she isn't doing such a thing!
Yer fella we believe you!
This is going to go over worse than Roy Keane asking Carlos Queiroz if he always makes love to his wife in the same position.
I take your point but both SSL and Killer turned down advances from England's underage teams.
It's was only ever going to be green for them.
Move on to today and let's be honest, England don't have much in terms of quality these days, so it's more an even keel between the UK and Ireland national teams.
Difference is we don't have Sky Sports hyping up our players like they do with England's mediocre squad.
Speaking from experience, Sean?
Well Kilbane did. You seem to be the only one who's heard of SSL doing the same.
Because he's a dual national and wants to have a think about things before jumping into a career-changing decision at such a young age?
When did St. Ledger turn down England? Whose advance did he reject?
So why were you ominously talking about St. Ledger being eligible for NI years ago before we capped him? Why even bring it up if not to heighten concern over the prospect of losing out on him?It's was only ever going to be green for them.
They regularly top qualification groups and make it to the knock-out stages of finals tournaments. We're more likely to finish third, or second if we've had a really good campaign.Move on to today and let's be honest, England don't have much in terms of quality these days, so it's more an even keel between the UK and Ireland national teams.
Difference is we don't have Sky Sports hyping up our players like they do with England's mediocre squad.
Woah! Enemy fire!
Ha, I don't think the doc ever offered a proper explanation though, did he?
If it was only ever going to be our green for Sean, why was he/the doc threatening us with a "big loss" to the benefit of the IFA?
He won't answer you, he will acknowledge other posters only if their views overlap with his, hence flattering his own self image and imagined strengthening of his opinion holding sway, or to mock or goad opinions he does not concur with. These are the two positions, its basic, I know, but there we are.
Danno.
Daily Mail Jack Grealish rant an insult to all second generation Irish
Jack Grealish is entitled to have a choice on who he represents
Ger Keville - Irish Independent
I only knew him as Sean. For the life of me, the name of his sidekick and buddy escapes me but what I do remember fondly was their love for football, a few beers and Ireland.
It was in my early days of following the Irish soccer team all over Europe and it was Amsterdam in 2000 when I first clinked glasses with the pair before Ireland’s 2-2 draw with the Dutch.
At the time, as a rookie Ireland fan, their striking English accents had me somewhat bemused. Two born and bred Englishmen and Coventry City season tickets holders were regaling their stories about following Ireland all over the world to me, a born and bred Dub.
As I would find out pretty quickly, Sean and his mate were not a unique duo. It started in Amsterdam and was confirmed in the stadiums and bars of Moscow, Basle, the glorious port of Budva in Montenegro and Slovakia just to name a few. They were everywhere and waved their tricolours and sang with pride.
Second generation Ireland fans form a huge core of the diehard Irish support.
According to one scribe in The Daily Mail, the granny rule should be ripped up and Jack Grealish should play for England, the land of his birth.
Maybe Sean and his mate will have to rip up their Irish passports and erase any memory of Ireland from their minds.
That’s right, Martin Samuel wants to take the choice away from players and force them into playing for a country they may not want to play for, never mind force them to abandon all their heritage and family history. If you are born in England, you play for England even if you feel you are not English, Samuel argues - unless you are an average player like Andy Townsend. Bizarre.
Somebody better tell Raheem Sterling not to read Samuel’s gibberish. Did the same writer have anything to say when John Barnes or Owen Hargreaves playing for the Three Lions? We better hope he doesn’t have an opinion on the English rugby or cricket teams.
If Jack Grealish wants to play for England, then he will play for England. If Jack Grealish wants to play for Ireland, then he will play for Ireland.
Surely having the choice to do something is a basic human right and if the teenager feels Irish, well then it is his choice to play for Ireland.
Not only is Samuel’s rant insulting to all second generation Irish, it is littered with inaccuracies and there is also has a pop at Irish scout Mark O’Toole.
“His job it is to sweep up the best young players qualified to play for Ireland. That's not the same as sweeping up the best young Irish players,” writes Samuel.
O’Toole is employed as a link between players who qualify to play for Ireland, their parents and the FAI. More often than not, parents will approach the scout and he will get the ball rolling, a liaison between the player and the FAI. He is far from some sort of predator Samuel makes him out to be and it’s quite obvious that he is doing a damn fine job.
Thanks to the likes of O’Toole, the Irish diaspora in England have a stepping stone to fulfilling their dream of playing for Ireland.
Samuel also writes that “the rules were intended to help those without a choice — unable to play for their country of birth, but good enough to represent that of their ancestors.”
Really?
Maybe Samuel is privy to information the rest of us are not, but I would be under the assumption that the rule is there for, eh, second generation players who have strong connections to their father/mother/granddad/granny’s country?
Samuel reckons that “not many people had seen Jack Grealish play before Sunday, so even fewer had heard him speak.”
Again, really?
Mark O’Toole has certainly seen him play as have representatives of the Football Association of Ireland and regular fans of the Irish underage teams and in this particular instance, Ireland’s underage scouting system has trumped England’s.
Funny how the toys come out of the pram once Grealish produces the magic on the big stage and credit to O’Toole and the FAI for recognising this talent five years before our British counterparts.
The bottom line here is this: Jack Grealish can still play for Ireland and England and he will choose the country he feels most aligned to. If that is England, then the best of luck to him.
Can this Samuel gem be beaten when referring to Adnan Januzaj?
“Better to have allowed the player to decide rather than make a sales pitch.”
Finally, he gets it. It’s the player’s decision.
ah he got the great one in there though. Could have applied to most about jg. maybe we should call him gg. its like the scene out of ace ventura denial is a horrible thing. nothing has changed whatsoever apart from a couple of good performances since this topic was closed and I was told "I know nothing more than anyone else so don't be talking like I am" because I gave a differing opinion based on what we all read. But for some reason now everyone thinks we are more likely resigned to losing him and I don't understand when little to nothing has changed. and the whole crux of that side of the argument was that "nothing new, nothing to suggest he isn't ours to lose"
Was in work earlier when I first read Martin Samuel's codswallop, so only getting the opportunity to properly dissect it now. I don't think he has any idea what he's talking about; it's staggering he's a chief sports writer and that Sky Sports often wheel him on to their Sunday morning football discussion show. It's full of so much careless, poorly-considered, disingenuous, unfounded, contradictory, ignorant and speculative rubbish (with a few drops of xenophobia and cultural pompousness for good measure), but I suppose it perfectly encapsulates the absolutely awful misinforming rag from the gutter that is the Daily Mail.
Yes, three out of four.
14. (As is later stated in the article, oddly.)Ireland, who have a scout to find qualified players, came in for him at 17
That'd be the Players' Status Committee who immediately oversee eligibility matters and ensure the Regulations Governing the Statutes are being complied with and applied correctly. If the regulations are found to be overbearing or overly restrictive in their application, they may even grant exemptions. England have two members on the committee at present.UEFA should have a panel to consider the status of players who are not representing the country of their birth
He has an Irish grandparent on his mother's side as well.That was partly through his grandparents on his father's side and also because the Irish employ a scout called Mark O'Toole, whose job it is to sweep up the best young players qualified to play for Ireland. That's not the same as sweeping up the best young Irish players.
And as if the FA don't have scouts/contacts acting in their interests too...
The Daily Mail would have been more than keen on FA scouts "sweeping up", say, Lewis Holtby from Germany: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...g-Arsenal.html and http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...das-touch.html
"We would know all about him if the FA and Fabio Capello hadn't let him slip through the net."
"How did England miss a boy with the Midas touch?"
All the lad's own choice and he's been happy to represent us. If he'd wanted to act upon the FA's interest, he had plenty of opportunities to do so. In fact, he's turned down all their advances to date.Ireland were into Grealish early, at 14, and since then he has represented them at Under 17, Under 18 and Under 21 levels. Recently there have been mixed messages. Receiving the award for Ireland's Under 21 player of the year — despite making only two appearances — he said 'hopefully' he would be back in the green jersey next year.
Januzaj could never have become eligible to play for England due to the British associations having replaced littera (d) of article 6 with their own requirement for 5 years of education in the relevant association's territory before the age of 18.The Football Association's pursuit of Adnan Januzaj was unedifying, misguided and ended in rejection anyway. Better to have allowed the player to decide rather than make a sales pitch.
I get the impression Samuel isn't too gone on respecting that choice if Jack makes the "wrong" one.Grealish has until now preferred to be with the group of teenagers who have accompanied him through his formative years in international football, and if that makes him feel more Irish than English culturally, that is his choice.
It's very much about the player. Grealish can be Irish because Irish nationality law entitles him to Irish citizenship. And the rules are still relevant. How can they not be? Or are we to base eligibility on Samuel's biased whim? The regulations certainly aren't out-dated and the FAI (and Grealish) have simply been using them as FIFA have intended. FIFA's intention is to enhance player choice. The rules are in recognition of the multicultural, globalised world in which we live. FIFA update/re-publish the statutes annually and have an Emergency Committee to introduce provisional/emergency legislation to swiftly deal with a pressing unintended issue if necessary before the Congress has had a chance to properly evaluate it.This is not about the player, then, but the process. Grealish can be Irish if he wants, the rules say so — but are the rules still relevant? Is it right that O'Toole should be able to act as a club scout in the international game, exploiting outdated regulations around nationality to sign up teenage schoolchildren for Ireland?
Jack's father has been protecting Jack and looking out for his best interests his whole life, so to make out like the FAI are ruthlessly exploiting or preying upon impressionable and vulnerable kids is just nonsense.
Erm, Grealish has rejected numerous FA advances. He'd have been in those England teams if he really wanted to have been.The rules were intended to help those without a choice — unable to play for their country of birth, but good enough to represent that of their ancestors. Andy Townsend, born in Maidstone, wasn't regarded highly by those in charge of England but was considered good enough to play for Ireland 70 times, through his Irish grandmother. Good luck to him — England's loss was Ireland's gain.
But Grealish's situation isn't like that. The rules as applied in his case do not combat the absence of choice, they offer more choice, where none is necessary.
Grealish would have long been around the England age group teams by now. He would certainly be in next season's Under 21 team, if he wasn't already heading to the European Under 21 Championship in the summer or to the Toulon Under 20 tournament.
The rules are there to protect players and to ensure they have a choice based on their national identity; the concept upon which international football is founded. FIFA fully acknowledge that players can have multiple national identities at once. Nothing wrong there. Who is Samuel to declare what is and isn't "necessary"? The choice is unnecessary just because the English media have an interest in Grealish all of a sudden?
I suppose he was just as agitated by Owen Hargreaves playing for England, or by Raheem Sterling or Saido Barahino at present.
As is our legal right.So while Ireland haven't broken any rules, they are certainly making the most of them.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 22/04/2015 at 10:14 PM.
Samuel must lose some serious sleep worrying about those Ireland-born players not selected by the FAI...Their last Under 21 squad — which did not include Grealish — was made up of 21 players, 11 of whom were not born in Ireland. That cannot be right. It is not fair on those within Ireland's club youth system. It is time for change.
Our youth situation isn't ideal in the sense we're unable to rely on our own set-up/domestic system to ensure a competitive senior international side, but that's a separate debate that shouldn't be reason to abolish protected nationality rights. And it's certainly not Samuel's place to get involved with his faux-concern, as if he actually gives a sh*t.
FIFA are well aware of this. It is something to embrace for the more tolerant and acceptant.We live in an era of globalisation, of migration, foreign travel and employment abroad. As borders break down or blur, more young athletes will qualify for multiple nations.
People having options in their lives; how awful...As the planet shrinks more players will have these options.
Is it right that national associations select the best young players that are eligible and willing to play for them? I would think so.So is it right that a national association operates as clubs do, recruiting the best young players in what is increasingly a free market. How long before there are secret inducements, promises, before agents are involved?
What if a sharp figure with good connections said he could 'get' Grealish for England, that he had the ear of the player and his family, but would want his expenses covered and maybe a bit extra? Far-fetched? Today's era of the super-agents would also have seemed that way had it been described to those who fought for the abolition of the maximum wage in the 1960s.
The next bit doesn't really make sense to me - can someone explain exactly what he's getting at? - but it sounds a lot like scaremongering rhetoric to me, despite the fact there hasn't been any rule-change recently that would have the effect of causing changes in agent behaviour all of a sudden. Are we not in a world where agents try to influence their player's choices anyway so that they take the more "marketable" option?
Anyway, articles 6 and 7 feature protections to ensure nationalised citizens are not exploited and to ensure countries can't just naturalise players in order to line them out for their football teams. They ensure a genuine, close and credible connection between player and country/association.
Cork-born Shane O'Neill, a prospect with plenty of promise who could be very useful for us if he did decide to declare, is in the US system at present but there's been very little howling from Ireland fans. Shane Lowry, Alex Bruce, Eamon Zayed; all players we've had switch to other associations and without howls of outrage. It's about respecting player choice, regardless of a player's ability or whatever wishes/expectations supporters might selfishly have for him.For who will benefit, long term, if not the wealthiest associations? Ireland may win over Grealish but imagine the howls if the positions were reversed: if the FA stepped in to entice a young Irish footballer, with a Brummie grandfather, to switch sides?
Anyway, isn't Grealish exactly a case of the FA stepping in to entice the young legally-Irish footballer with a Brummie grandfather to switch sides? But Samuel tells us he wants to look out for the poorer associations...
So now using the rules as they're supposed to be used and seeking victory is potentially "unscrupulous"? Winning is already paramount for most, if not all, associations. All associations will use the rules as best they can, so pontificating on this is tiresome.It only requires an unscrupulous regime seeking victory at all costs. This is what happens if we take the nationalism out of national sport, if we make it too easy to pick up or abandon allegiance. It should be resolved at confederation level.
And God forbid international footballers aren't nationally pure!
What does Samuel propose? What ought the panel's actual criteria be? It's important to have a standard and transparent set of universally-applying rules; there'd be chaos and uncertainty otherwise.UEFA should have a panel that sits to consider the status of any player who is not representing the country of his birth. Some cases would go on the tick, taking seconds. Nobody thought Singapore had much claim to Terry Butcher, for instance, just because his father was a signalman in the Royal Navy and he spent the first two years of his life there.
Did Butcher actually possess Singaporean citizenship? If he did, who is Samuel to dismiss his legally-held citizenship anyway? If Butcher had ever lined out for Singapore, it'd have been because that's what he'd wanted to do; not because the Singaporean association had taken advantage of him or coerced him into declaring for them.
So, the rules are fine, just so long as we wait until Grealish is 25 and the FA first declare themselves uninterested?And there would be little objection to a player such as Townsend, who was 25 when he got his first Ireland call-up, at a time when it was obvious he was unwanted by England.
Well, England don't have to get involved if they're above it all and would rather avoid the "unsightly"...It is different for players like Grealish, who turned his back on England before he was old enough to sit a GCSE. This wasn't opportunity; it was opportunism. Unnecessary and wrong and all too predictably destined to end in this unsightly tug of war.
Re that Martin Samuel piece- you often dissect complex pieces of legislation from the perspective of player eligibility. I think out of all the works you've had to dissect, that must have been the easiest for you. It is a piece which sees some of the more xenophobic paranoia normally reserved for the Mail's front pages seep like urine down to the back pages.
Danno.
It really can't be emphasised enough just how awful the Daily Mail is: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...-Berhaino.html
As someone said in the comments section, the "build him up; knock him down" has happened a lot quicker than expected.
And then there's this:
... which sounds like more baseless crap.The allegations come after it emerged that Grealish is ready to commit his international future to England, provided Roy Hodgson assures him he figures in his long-term plans.
Grealish is at the centre of a tug-of-war between England and the Republic of Ireland. He was born in the Midlands to English parents but qualifies for the Republic through his grandparents. He will give himself until the summer, when the two countries face each other, before deciding.
But Sportsmail understands the teenager is leaning towards a future with England. He has received guarantees from Republic of Ireland boss Martin O'Neill, who wants to pick the star in his squad to face England in June.
That's in all the papers, to be fair. Sucking balloons on film seems to be the in thing for young footballers right now.
edit: why am I standing up for the Daily Mail?
Last edited by Charlie Darwin; 23/04/2015 at 12:44 AM.
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