Page 366 of 368 FirstFirst ... 266316356364365366367368 LastLast
Results 7,301 to 7,320 of 7341

Thread: Eligibility Rules, Okay

  1. #7301
    Seasoned Pro TheOneWhoKnocks's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Ted Bundy of the Wesht
    Posts
    4,943
    Thanks
    461
    Thanked 688 Times in 508 Posts
    At the end of the day, it's up to the footballers I suppose. They're well within their right to do what they want to do. NI have just got to keep on keeping on. Produce them; develop them; make them feel wanted; inculcate them. They have a strong set up and record of working with young players up there. If we benefit, hooray for us.

    I'm sure they can take players from us also. There were whispers several years ago that a couple of Southern players were thinking of switching but nothing came to fruition.

  2. #7302
    Seasoned Pro joe_denilson's Avatar
    Joined
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    2,908
    Thanks
    244
    Thanked 971 Times in 524 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks View Post
    But at least Grealish was English born and bred.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks View Post
    I'm sure they can take players from us also. There were whispers several years ago that a couple of Southern players were thinking of switching but nothing came to fruition.
    Alright Towk, very funny. I'll give you credit for the effort but you can drop the act now, nobody is that ignorant.

  3. #7303
    Seasoned Pro TheOneWhoKnocks's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Ted Bundy of the Wesht
    Posts
    4,943
    Thanks
    461
    Thanked 688 Times in 508 Posts

  4. #7304
    Seasoned Pro joe_denilson's Avatar
    Joined
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    2,908
    Thanks
    244
    Thanked 971 Times in 524 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks View Post
    I stand corrected.

    It might be worth reading through the thread before diving in with both feet.

    The English born and bred comments sounds like you're suggested McClean is not Irish born and bred which is hugely insulting to a huge number of Irish people, including a lot of posters on here.

    The second one about southern players switching. Again, read the thread, Irish players are not eligible for Northern Ireland unless they are dual nationals and that's too simple an explanation.
    .

  5. Thanks From:


  6. #7305
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    10,070
    Thanks
    2,913
    Thanked 3,272 Times in 1,999 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie View Post
    They were perfectly entitled to play for Northern Ireland at underage level. They exercised their right to do so, experience it, learn from it, benefit from it and ultimately when and if they decide they'd rather play for the team down the road -that's their right too.
    It's also worth remembering that the IFA have been more than happy to continue training and selecting players who have already made it explicitly clear to them that their ultimate ambition is to represent the FAI: http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligib...=1#post1563742

    The IFA are happy to continue training and selecting such players because they stand to benefit from these players' participation in their teams and may even end up with these players opting to commit to the association down the line as that desired call from the FAI may never emerge for the player. So, it's not a case of "all take" by the players concerned. The IFA benefit from these "transactions" too.

    Besides, who's funding the IFA, their coaching and the facilities they use? A significant portion of their funding is public money; a considerable amount of that comes from the nationalist community who support Ireland and who regard players like Duffy and McClean as local/community heroes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie View Post
    Also, I have great time for Brian Kerr but he's somewhat forked tongued on this issue and possibly selective in his memory too -he described the FAI (of whom I'm scarcely a fan) as 'predatory' in their pursuit of McClean when it transpires McClean initiated contact with the FAI via Niall Quinn and Sunderland. Yet, and perhaps one of the Northern Ireland lads on here can add to, confirm or rebuff this, - there were more than one or two on OWC a few years back asserting that Kerr -acting on what information or initiative I don't know, telephoned the as yet uncapped Chris Baird to invite him to join up with our squad only for Baird to say 'No thanks, I'm happy where I am'.
    I read that story myself about Baird. EalingGreen used to bring it up. I only ever read about it on this forum and on OWC; never saw it published anywhere else. That's not necessarily to say it wasn't true.

    For what it's worth, Kerr also selected northerners Henry McStay and Ger Crossley in his under-age teams. He also had early discussions with Darron Gibson about switching.

    He did turn Michael McGovern away, mind, and advised him to stick with the IFA as Shay, Dean Kiely, Wayne Henderson, Brian Murphy and Joe Murphy would all have been ahead of McGovern in the goalkeeping pecking order at the time, according to Kerr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Kerr
    I first came across Michael McGovern 14 years ago, long before he was a European Championship hero for Northern Ireland, back in the day when I was managing the Irish youth team.

    He was selected for an underage squad, had showed some promise, and seemed interested in declaring for us.

    Yet, at the time, there were plenty of goalkeepers ahead of him in the queue.

    Shay Given was still young and was our No 1. Dean Kiely was playing Premier League football with Charlton and our youth set-up had produced some fine goalkeepers around that era - Brian Murphy, Wayne Henderson, Joe Murphy.

    So I felt I had to be honest, and even though Michael was a smiley, pleasant fella, the sort I loved having around the squad, I thought it was right to tell him that if he harboured ambitions to play international football, the reality was that he would stand a better chance with Northern Ireland than us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie View Post
    I'm not accusing Kerr of anything other than hypocracy there. As the Ireland manager his primary duty was to maximise the player pool available to the FAI. He broke no rule I know of by calling Baird -if indeed he did contact him.
    I like Kerr myself and have a great deal of respect for him, but his denunciations in recent years of the FAI's facilitation of northerners are totally hypocritical considering his own managerial actions back in the day. I'm not saying Kerr was wrong in selecting northern players either - he wasn't - just that he's a hypocrite if he's going to use it as a stick with which to beat the FAI now.

  7. #7306
    Seasoned Pro TheOneWhoKnocks's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Ted Bundy of the Wesht
    Posts
    4,943
    Thanks
    461
    Thanked 688 Times in 508 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by joe_denilson View Post
    I stand corrected.

    It might be worth reading through the thread before diving in with both feet.

    The English born and bred comments sounds like you're suggested McClean is not Irish born and bred which is hugely insulting to a huge number of Irish people, including a lot of posters on here.

    The second one about southern players switching. Again, read the thread, Irish players are not eligible for Northern Ireland unless they are dual nationals and that's too simple an explanation.
    .
    I never said they weren't baseless rumours. Could a person from the South of Ireland with Northern Irish grandparentage not be eligible for the Northern Ireland national team, joedenilson?

    I respect James McClean's reasons for declaring for us and anyone can see some in NI's camp are wilfully ignorant of them, but he undermines his own cause when he says he used them as a stepping stone in his own career and suggests that he waited until his stock was high to switch to ROI.

  8. #7307
    Seasoned Pro joe_denilson's Avatar
    Joined
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    2,908
    Thanks
    244
    Thanked 971 Times in 524 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks View Post
    I never said they weren't baseless rumours. Could a person from the South of Ireland with Northern Irish grandparentage not be eligible for the Northern Ireland national team, joedenilson?

    I respect James McClean's reasons for declaring for us and anyone can see some in NI's camp are wilfully ignorant of them, but he undermines his own cause when he says he used them as a stepping stone in his own career and suggests that he waited until his stock was high to switch to ROI.
    Nice dodge. If you can't see the distinction between born and bred Irishmen like McClean playing for Ireland and someone from the 26 counties with a Northern Irish grandparent, I'll just leave it, I thought you were on a deliberate wind up. I never mentioned anything about McClean being a PR nightmare, that fact is well known.

  9. #7308
    Coach tetsujin1979's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Dublin, originally from Limerick
    Posts
    15,647
    Thanks
    703
    Thanked 2,651 Times in 1,648 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks View Post
    I never said they weren't baseless rumours. Could a person from the South of Ireland with Northern Irish grandparentage not be eligible for the Northern Ireland national team, joedenilson?

    I respect James McClean's reasons for declaring for us and anyone can see some in NI's camp are wilfully ignorant of them, but he undermines his own cause when he says he used them as a stepping stone in his own career and suggests that he waited until his stock was high to switch to ROI.
    McClean pulled out of the Northern Ireland squad to play the Faroes in July 2011, when he was still with Derry City.
    All goals, yellow and red cards tweeted in real time: http://twitter.com/irish_abroad and posted to facebook: https://www.facebook.com/irishfootballstatisics

  10. #7309
    Seasoned Pro TheOneWhoKnocks's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Ted Bundy of the Wesht
    Posts
    4,943
    Thanks
    461
    Thanked 688 Times in 508 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by joe_denilson View Post
    Nice dodge. If you can't see the distinction between born and bred Irishmen like McClean playing for Ireland and someone from the 26 counties with a Northern Irish grandparent, I'll just leave it, I thought you were on a deliberate wind up. I never mentioned anything about McClean being a PR nightmare, that fact is well known.
    So it is possible for someone from ROI to declare for NI and I wasn't imagining things? Okay.

    I'm not on a wind up. Of course I can see the distinction between someone like McClean and Grealish. It's night and day. I'm simply trying to understand things from their (NI) perspective. It isn't a black and white issue. There are grey areas. That is all.

  11. #7310
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Limerick for now.
    Posts
    6,380
    Thanks
    999
    Thanked 1,298 Times in 687 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by joe_denilson View Post
    Nice dodge. If you can't see the distinction between born and bred Irishmen like McClean playing for Ireland and someone from the 26 counties with a Northern Irish grandparent, I'll just leave it
    What is the distinction?

  12. #7311
    Seasoned Pro joe_denilson's Avatar
    Joined
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    2,908
    Thanks
    244
    Thanked 971 Times in 524 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by osarusan View Post
    What is the distinction?
    McClean is eligible for both NI and ROI from birth.
    A person from 26 counties with NI grandparent is eligible for ROI from birth. They can apply for British Citizenship in order to play for NI but it's complicated. They are not automatically dual nationals in respect of FIFA.

    Anyway, that wasn't my main issue. I was triggered by the born and bred comment but TOWK has since cleared up that it wasn't his intention to imply McClean wasn't born and bred.

  13. Thanks From:


  14. #7312
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Elm Valley, Blackpool
    Posts
    11,301
    Thanks
    2,088
    Thanked 2,421 Times in 1,668 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks View Post
    I'm just saying I completely understand why Northern Ireland fans would be annoyed about the situation.

    I'm delighted that players the caliber of Duffy and McClean declared for us but if the shoe was on the other foot..

    You have to see both sides of the story.

    I can't imagine how annoyed I would be if I was a NI fan when McClean made his "stepping stone" comment.

    The closest thing you could compare it to is Grealish using ROI as a stepping stone, which he obviously did.

    But at least Grealish was English born and bred, and had the common sense and PR savvy not to make such questionable comments in a public arena.
    We don't have to see both sides of the story the way you seem to think. Are you aware of how hypocritical the IFA have been in there attitudes towards Irish-born players who choose to declare for their country over the decades? This debate has gone on and on and it's always the IFA, their manager, the OWC or their supporters clubs having a moan about our "poaching".

    It's a corollary of Unionism and its inherent defensiveness and hypocrisy. And your consistent "let's all get along" approach is profoundly irritating and patronising.

    There are 1.8m people living in Fermanagh, Antrim, Tyrone, Derry, Armagh and Down, and only about 900,000 really have any real cultural attachment to the IFA's team. These players that we "poach" generally have little cultural interest in playing for the IFA and should they line out for them like say Niall McGinn did, it has been pragmatic and there's no need to over-egg the decision. The IFA manager doesn't have to pick them if he feels that their commitment isn't 100%.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  15. #7313
    Seasoned Pro TheOneWhoKnocks's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Ted Bundy of the Wesht
    Posts
    4,943
    Thanks
    461
    Thanked 688 Times in 508 Posts
    The same cultural faults you could level at Northern Irish unionists are ones inherent in us.

    Irishness the way someone like James McClean sees it as different to the way someone like Alan Maybury, Richard Sadlier or Brian Kerr would see it.

    Alan Maybury has given interviews about the abuse he got for wearing a Rangers tracksuit growing up in Dublin and so did Richard Sadlier. Less than 20 years ago baboons in Lansdowne Road were booing players who played for Rangers. Bill O'Herlihy had to be reprimanded for making embarrassing comments about badminton "being a Protestant sport" to the entire country on our national broadcaster after Chloe Magee won a match several years ago.

    The tricolour is green, white and orange for a reason.

    The bottom line is McClean and Hale deserve to be left alone after making their reasons for switching vehemently clear, even lads like O'Kane for whom nationalistic background didn't play a part, but again, I can see their (NI)'s perspective.

    They're a small nation and they've spent time and resources developing players only to see them switch.

    And I'm open to correction, Bonnie, but haven't several players switched back to NI from ROI which would undermine things a little bit from our perspective?

    Anyway, I'm glad the Hale's switched and hope they make an impact even marginally close to a Robbie Keane.
    Last edited by TheOneWhoKnocks; 21/03/2017 at 9:55 AM.

  16. #7314
    Seasoned Pro CraftyToePoke's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    2,925
    Thanks
    730
    Thanked 446 Times in 297 Posts
    Was Kerrs father of an Orange disposition ?

  17. #7315
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Elm Valley, Blackpool
    Posts
    11,301
    Thanks
    2,088
    Thanked 2,421 Times in 1,668 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks View Post
    The same cultural faults you could level at Northern Irish unionists are ones inherent in us.
    Such as?

    I lay on my "inherent bigotry" really thickly. It's so bloody obvious for all to see.

    Irishness the way someone like James McClean sees it as different to the way someone like Alan Maybury, Richard Sadlier or Brian Kerr would see it.
    What are you on about?

    I have no issue with anyone's expression of their Irishness (no matter how that may be demonstrated) and if you had even the most cursory knowledge of me or my discussions in here you would know not to even attempt to drive down this road.

    Alan Maybury has given interviews about the abuse he got for wearing a Rangers tracksuit growing up in Dublin and so did Richard Sadlier.
    Supporting Rangers or wearing their gear is nothing to do with cultural expression in this context I would bet... and I hardly think it made much of a difference to him when it came to playing for Ireland. It wasn't like Alan Kernaghan making a decision...

    I knew a lad in my class like Sadlier who "supported" Rangers. AND tbh he was mostly on a WUM. I grew up despising Celtic for the sectarian crap that followed them around. Does that equate to the same thing?
    I honestly can't believe you are equating to Dublin-born Rangers "supporting" guys with anything remotely concerning the IFA attitude and their well trodden issue with Irish-born players wanting to play for their national team, ie the FAI representative team.

    Less than 20 years ago baboons in Lansdowne Road were booing players who played for Rangers.
    So? They also played for the opposition. Those days are so long ago and so unbelievably in the past it's beyond belief you are bringing it up as an example of nationalist attitudes to Unionists/IFA.

    Less than 20 years ago Omagh happened? 21 since Manchester? So?

    Bill O'Herlihy had to be reprimanded for making embarrassing comments about badminton "being a Protestant sport" to the entire country on our national broadcaster after Chloe Magee won a match several years ago.
    Come off it. Are ya serious? I still refer to garrison games. AS do many others mostly in jest and mostly in recognising the historical nature of sport on this island and how it grew and ebbed and flowed. Badminton and cricket were Protestant sports in my view when I was growing up... didn't stop me playing them mind as a teen and adult. You're a touch sensitive I feel.

    The tricolour is green, white and orange for a reason.
    Aye, it is. And?

    The bottom line is McClean and Hale deserve to be left alone after making their reasons for switching vehemently clear
    ,

    They do indeed deserve to be left alone. Who's arguing to the contrary here? The fact is the issues with their choice to play for their team of choice, for whatever reason is not with us on here!

    even lads like O'Kane for whom nationalistic background didn't play a part
    ,

    But if it did play a part you would have to concede that perhaps it was wrong then? I don't understand your point here.

    but again, I can see their (NI)'s perspective.
    Your sympathy for the IFA is rather big of you. TBH, I have zero. And I never will.

    They're a small nation
    A what now?

    and they've spent time and resources developing players only to see them switch.
    My heart is bleeding. Oh poor wee angels of Donegall Avenue.

    You do realise that schoolkids dotted around the Six Counties who may identify with our team might find it difficult to get to play for us at an early age given the logistics of the situation and the fact that we lack jurisdiction for them to train and play with us. I'm sure if we could let them join earlier we would.

    Also, playing for NI Schools means nahim!

    And I'm open to correction, Bonnie, but haven't several players switched back to NI from ROI which would undermine things a little bit from our perspective?
    How does it undermine anything? The FAI have never openly courted players. And always stress that the player makes the first contact given the sensitive nature of the issue at hand.

    No one in the IFA or OWC etc should ever complain about the situation yet they constantly cry poor mouth.

    I don't agree with our approach as I believe our playing pool is small enough without needlessly limiting ourselves. But we are where we are.

    Anyway, I'm glad the Hale's switched and hope they make an impact even marginally close to a Robbie Keane.
    Here, here.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  18. Thanks From:


  19. #7316
    Reserves Wangball's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    625
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 71 Times in 38 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks View Post
    Alan Maybury has given interviews about the abuse he got for wearing a Rangers tracksuit growing up in Dublin and so did Richard Sadlier.
    Go back and read that Richard Sadlier article about being a Rangers "fan", its pure drivel. The first paragraph is like an Alan Partridge cold open.

    http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-26726387.html
    You show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser - Vince Lombardi

  20. #7317
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    10,070
    Thanks
    2,913
    Thanked 3,272 Times in 1,999 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke View Post
    Was Kerrs father of an Orange disposition ?
    Kerr's father, Frank (or Frankie), was a Belfast Catholic who was son of an officer in the British army, although it seems some believed he was a Protestant because he ran the Trinity College boxing club. There's further information here in a 2004 biographical-style piece by Dion Fanning: http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-26216814.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion Fanning
    As far as the Kerr family know, Frankie Kerr's father was a high-ranking officer in the British Army. Ulick [O'Connor] has heard he was a captain, but the Kerrs have seen the pictures, noted the servants crowding around in the background and think he was higher. "A captain in the Raj would have had plenty of servants," Ulick says.

    A newspaper cutting records the fact that Frankie Kerr fought his first fight in Baghdad. The army took his father to Egypt and India as well as Mesopotamia. It was there, as a child, that Frankie befriended the future prince. The family developed a love of cricket and hockey too - Frankie would later play for Three Rock Rovers in the Leinster League.

    Davey, one of Frankie's brothers, used to tell a story. There was a big parade in the barracks in Egypt. It was the British Empire at its most resplendent. The Governor-General may have been there, Generals were certainly in attendance. All was set for a splendid display when a donkey came charging through the barracks, on its back Frankie Kerr. The youngster was ordered to stop by the sergeant-major with the words "Who goes there?" With a swagger detectable in pictures taken more than 60 years ago, the child saluted and said "Frankie Kerr, sir!" before trotting off on his donkey.

    The Kerrs returned to England, moving from the Isle of Wight to Aldershot and then back to Belfast. "As far as we know, his father was a Belfast man," Brian says. "Someone came from Scotland before that, and there was a change of religion in the family as well."

    "What religion was Frankie?" Ulick asks.

    "We were all Catholics."

    "I know you were, but was he a Catholic too?"

    "He was, yeah. There was a change. I think Mrs Kerr, the grandmother of the father changed and she was from a wealthy family. After that, they didn't want to know about her. He never talked much to us about the past but I knew he was never happy. He didn't want to go back to Belfast. He came here as a young man and I think he was annoyed about the whole business and the madness that went on. My eldest brother Frankie says they went up for his own father's funeral and they came back the same night."

  21. Thanks From:


  22. #7318
    Seasoned Pro TheOneWhoKnocks's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Ted Bundy of the Wesht
    Posts
    4,943
    Thanks
    461
    Thanked 688 Times in 508 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke View Post
    Was Kerrs father of an Orange disposition ?
    http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...gers-1-1292555

    He has connections to Northern Ireland through family.

    Responding to the bigotry against Arveladze 14 years ago:

    Kerr is doing his best to make sure it doesn’t happen on Tuesday week. "I hope that stuff fades away, I really do. I’d like there to be none of that. It’s something that ****es me off. My father and mother were from Belfast and they would have socialised in a mixed environment."
    He was open to managing Northern Ireland a few years ago but an offer never materialised.
    Last edited by TheOneWhoKnocks; 21/03/2017 at 11:26 AM.

  23. #7319
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    10,070
    Thanks
    2,913
    Thanked 3,272 Times in 1,999 Posts
    In case anyone missed Paddy McEleney's latest wonder-goal against St. Pat's last weekend, here's a video:



    Majestic.


  24. #7320
    International Prospect DeLorean's Avatar
    Joined
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hill Valley
    Posts
    8,361
    Thanks
    2,919
    Thanked 2,296 Times in 1,447 Posts
    Danny won't like Danny for this: F365

    Cop out

    On Tuesday morning, TalkSPORT asked famously sensitive cultural expert Danny Mills to pass comment on Wilfried Zaha’s decision to play for Ivory Coast, his country of birth, over England.

    Firstly, here is what Zaha said when making his decision:

    “It is rewarding first because I am proud to play for my country, then because the Ivoirian selection has quality players and it has always been a pool of talent. I left for England as a child and I did not return. So I did all my classes in my adopted country and it was the most normal thing in the world that I played for the English youth selections. But for the past four years, I have had ample time to analyse the situation and to take into account the offers of the Ivorian federation. So I made the right choice and I do not regret it.”

    Now to Mills for his typically nuanced take. He knows all about the difficulties and deliberations of Zaha’s decision you see, because he was born in Norwich and played for England:

    “Ultimately he’s taken the easier option and thought ‘Well, I might get a few more caps and I might get to play in a few more tournaments because my chances with England are probably going to be limited. I probably done 30-odd squads and never got any game time; sat in the stands, sat on the bench. But you still turned up every single time in the hope that you might get a chance and take it.”

    ‘Ultimately’, Danny, you haven’t got a clue what Zaha was thinking or his reasons for choosing his country of birth, and thus projecting your opinion onto him is, at best, mildly offensive.

  25. Thanks From:


Similar Threads

  1. Eligibility Rules, Okay
    By TheOneWhoKnocks in forum Rubbish
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03/02/2017, 11:17 AM
  2. Eligibility Rules, Okay
    By geysir in forum Rubbish
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12/11/2013, 9:47 AM
  3. Problem - eligibility
    By SkStu in forum Support
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 25/05/2011, 8:14 AM
  4. Player eligibility row
    By an_ceannaire in forum Ireland
    Replies: 1883
    Last Post: 09/02/2011, 12:07 PM
  5. Eligibility Rules
    By Stuttgart88 in forum Ireland
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 10/11/2004, 5:40 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •