QuoteOr Gerard Doherty.
Saul Deeney?Originally Posted by co. down green
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
Saul Deeney it is
Is there a comprehensive list of all northern-born players to have declared/played for us? I'm bound to have missed a fair few, but, since 1995, I can think of:
Ger Crossley
Saul Deeney
Kevin Deery
Daniel Devine
Gerard Doherty
Shane Duffy
Shane Ferguson (Assuming he goes through with the switch.)
Paul George
Darron Gibson
Ruairí Harkin
Tony Kane
Daniel Kearns
Neil McCafferty
James McClean
Patrick McEleney
Shane McEleney
Mark McKeever
Henry McStay
Barry Molloy
Marc Mukendi
Michael O'Connor
Eunan O'Kane
Tony Shields
Marc Wilson
Then, those who've been eligible through northern ancestry:
Adam Barton
Alex Bruce
Alan Kernaghan (First played in 1993.)
Carl Magnay (Has he declared?)
We've also had northern-born women play for our women's team, I believe.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 19/08/2011 at 6:23 PM.
Andy Kilmartin
James Quigley
Darren McCauley
Brian Lagan
Larry Farren
David McDaid
Eugene Ferry
Mark Hicks
The following was an exchange on Twitter between O'Kane and a NI fan earlier:
@eunan10 could you inform the supporters of the real reason for you opting for the Republic of Ireland. They have a right to know! Thanks.
@thegawa after some of the comments I got from people yesterday that don't know anything about me you deserve nothing!
@eunan10 am i them? no! jumping because you weren't getting selected for the senior side is not an excuse.
@thegawa who said it was anything to do with not being selected for the senior side! Now you are assuming, the same way a few people did yesterday that I did it because of where am from or what I am!
@eunan10 if it is peer pressure & community beliefs then why can paddy mccourt & niall mcginn represent N. Ireland & get cheered by fans?
@eunan10 only going by what I read from sources. if there is an issue with anthem and/or flag etc. let us know so we can rectify problem(s). The main issue is that you waited until now to jump. why? what has changed that prevented you from switching well before now? Did you not see the Northern Ireland fans give Paddy McCourt a standing ovation before & after the game vs the Faroe Islands?
@thegawa if you speak to anyone that knows me personally every single one of them will tell you that the flag/anthem is not an issue for me!
@eunan10 thats good to hear but if it isnt that or not getting selected for the seniors what else can it be? If we dont know we cant fix it. I am only trying 2 understand the reason behind the switch. There is a player drain to the FAI & it would b good 2 know the reasons.
@thegawa For me personally there's two or three footballing reasons! I aint going to go into them now but when my clearance has come through then I will tell everyone what they are!
@eunan10 Fair enough if it is to have a better chance of qualifying for tournaments or improve career prospects thats your choice. I just wish you & the rest had made the switch much earlier. Thats the main annoyance with fans that you waited until going through the ranks & then going. There are development/travel costs invested which have been wasted. Players missing out on getting selected etc. well good luck with your chosen path anyway, you will move up the leagues soon as you have that potential. Their gain is our loss.
@thegawa thanks! I am sure we will speak again when my reasons become public! I appreciate you actually trying to find out the actual reasons unlike some who just assumed yesterday!
Not sure what to make of that.
I will never understand the costs argument that is constantly brought up around player switches. The vast majority of that money is "wasted" in the sense that the players don't make the grade at the top level. The same amount is spent on every player who gets selected for a particular game and, in most cases, the players who've opted to switch to the Republic only played a few games for Northern Ireland. It's peanuts compared to the money spent on players who weren't good enough to make the step up.
I thought it was an interesting exchange for a few reasons. The initial message is indicative of the arrogant assumption amongst a large number of NI fans that they are owed something by these players or have some sort of divine right to be dictating upon matters which are absolutely none of their business. Sometimes I have to wonder if it's a cultural legacy thing; some sort of residual mindset left over from a past heyday (not on the football field)...
Thinking about James McClean, for example, he was trained by Trojans and then came through the ranks at Derry City of the League of Ireland to make his debut at the age of 18 in 2008. In all that time, he was never a regular feature within any IFA team. He then featured in the 2008 Milk Cup for NI and was later called into a number of under-21 squads. How much investment were the IFA genuinely putting in there? Were they putting in more than he was offering back, and, if so, would that somehow morally justify calls that he owes them something further in return beyond those merely temporary arrangements? It's very difficult to see how.
O'Kane reserves his right to privacy, and rightly so, but what some NI fans seem to fail to be able to grasp is that possessing a cultural Irish identity does not necessarily entail that an individual must be a militant republican or turn red with rage at the sight of an 'Ulster Banner'. I find that to be indicative of an extraordinarily puzzling, claustrophobic and paranoid mentality. The 'Ulster Banner' might just be as irrelevant to Eunan O'Kane culturally as the flag of France of Germany. He doesn't have to seethe with rage at the sight of it, or even have any issue with it, to express his national identity, or to just be Irish. Sadly, this particular inquisitor also seems keen to dismiss an Irish identity as peer pressure from the community, but I suppose that's nothing new.
But every national side has youth training in the knowledge that only a tiny percent of those trained will be good enough. It's one thing to 'lose' money on players who aren't good enough, but it's another thing to 'lose' money on players who eventually decide (or who knew all along) that they'd rather play for somebody else.
There is a finite amount of time and cash available, and any training a player like O'Kane may have received might have meant that another player was forced to miss out. I know Danny has made the argument that any time/effort/money invested in these players is repaid by the performances they give at underage level, but I think that's a bit simplistic. There is a dual aim when training younger players - to produce better underage sides and to produce better senior sides. Players are trained (or at least, were trained) by the IFA in the understanding (or assumption might be a better word) that these players want to play for Northern Ireland at all levels. I think the IFA have a right to feel somewhat aggrieved when a player decides they want to play for ROI at senior level.
If a player (say... 14 years old) was to tell the IFA that he was perfectly happy to play for NI at underage levels, but when he reached senior level, he fully intended to declare for the ROI, would it have an affect on their attitude to him?
Last edited by osarusan; 20/08/2011 at 7:43 AM.
I'm not dismissing your argument lightly - there is a grievance there that is worth consideration - but just on that last point, the IFA were long aware of Shane Duffy's interest in playing for us. He'd attended an FAI training camp and expressed his desire to figures within the IFA. The funny thing, however, was that that didn't actually deter them from selecting him; they did the complete opposite, in fact, and fast-tracked him through the various levels by offering him carrot caps. The fact they've employed Gerry Anderson as "Elite Player Nentor", and just reading his tone in the media, I get the impression that they'll be continuing with such a policy whereby they'll devote more favourable or greater attention to potential or open waverers than those they might perceive to be steadfastly loyal.
As regards the main point though - just to iron it out really - at what point, if any, can a player legitimately feel like he no longer owes the association anything? By partaking in one squad, say, is he ethically obliged to attend the next if called upon?
When the IFA select any player, they're fully aware that international football is a voluntary endeavour. They can lose a George McCartney just as easily as a Shane Duffy, for example. It's a risk for any association and the FAI haven't been immune to losing players to other associations either, albeit not so extensively. We've lost players like Shane Lowry and Johnny Gorman to Australia and NI respectively. And then there's the likes of Stephen Ireland. In saying all that, if FIFA were to re-implement an age cap by which players had to make a decisive declaration, I don't think I would have any problem with that whatsoever in principle. The IFA are more than free to lobby FIFA on that matter and I'm sure they could find willing backers within the FFF to bolster their case if shrewd enough to approach them after the whole quotas thing came to light.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 20/08/2011 at 8:17 AM.
Jaysus, have the IFA employed Gerry Anderson Danny? and him a Derry man.
I don't think that 'owing the association' is the term I'd use. I think it's more about being aggrieved that time and effort has been spent on a player who later represents another team.
I think it's not unreasonable that the IFA offer training on the assumption that the recipients of the training have as their goal eventually representing NI at senior level. They have a right to feel that, to a certain extent, they have been 'used' by a player who continues to take advantage of whatever training they offer having already decided to declare for the ROI. Any player who does this is cheating the IFA, in my opinion.
Now, I'm not saying that happens all the time, or even a lot. There are players, I'm sure, who are genuinely undecided about which national team they want to play for. They may even wait until they get a call up for a senior cap (or even until a competitive cap) before really having to think about it.
He's just a puppet of a man.Jaysus, have the IFA employed Gerry Anderson Danny
Boom, boom.
It's called 'control freakery' (of the worst and most arrogant kind).
Well, the cap fits...
But the IFA are happy to approach players who are with other associations, associations that have trained & invested in players, how can they moan when someone does likewise?
The IFA play the 'victims card' about Irish players born in the north opting for Ireland yet they are happy to do exactly the same when looking for players.
Lee Camp, Johnny Gorman, Alex Bruce, Caolan Lavery,Oliver Norwood, Joe Dudgeon, Callum Morris etc...... all had time invested in them by the FAI, English FA & Canadian FA - I don't see the same 'poor wee us' attitude emanating from those associations.
The IFA attitude stinks of hypocrisy.
And its also worth noting that a large proportion of IFA funding comes via the public purse, from taxes, rates etc..so it's my money, and the money of a sizable proportion of the population in the North whose attitude would be that they are quite happy for players to opt to play for Ireland.
Last edited by co. down green; 20/08/2011 at 12:24 PM.
I'd re-read that and everything but didn't even notice, although Anderson might be of use. Sure didn't he popularise the term 'Stroke City'?Jaysus, have the IFA employed Gerry Anderson Danny
Sure, it's their collective 'siege mentality'...
Yeah, I don't think they're as calculating and intentionally-exploitative about it all as NI fans try to make out. It's generally a case of a young lad happy to get a bit of local recognition, accepts a call-up, forms bonds with coaches and team-mates, things snowball and then it kind of comes to the point where he has to actually make a crucial decision.
Well that's sort of my point. They should be arguing that the players are hampering the association's efforts to build up a better senior squad, not this financial red herring. Although it could also be argued that players like Duffy made the underage sides better than they would otherwise have been and better results benefit the players in the long-run.
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