QuoteYou being deliberately obtuse.Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Need to learn from GR and, er, 'roll' with it....
I would definitely watch that sit-com. Maybe throw in a 12 year old kid though and set it in Malibu....
Folding my way into the big money!!!
You being deliberately obtuse.
Need to learn from GR and, er, 'roll' with it....
I'm not at all being obtuse.
It seems to me that when you are challenged with facts that you not comfortable with (in this case people from Northern Ireland being of dual nationality - British & Irish), or when you don't understand the substance of a point in discussion, you resort to childish, cryptic, nonsense.
I'm happy to debate with you, but it would help if you articulated your point(s) more clearly - in order words, "spit it out", instead of waffling.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Actually you are, I already said I wasn't talking talking about the North, but you choose to ignore it. That's your look out.
That's the truest thing he's ever written. Not known as 'Three Plates' for nothing!
Except I rarely touch lager....Mr Bhoy has been a prominent figure on the London football management scene for many years.
Only last month I refereed an over 35 all star select under his direction. All went well until the Louth-based lager-lout started a row in an empty changing room about rolling substitutions, or similar.
The rest is mainly a work of fiction.
See above;The phrase 'sidescreen' for GR springs to mind.
Let's just say An Lu wouldn't have been quite as passive as some....Classic AB. An honorary Ulsterman, if ever there was such a thing. Maybe like Lord Edward Carson.
And rather Frank over Ed....
No, the novelty of a few seconds is not worth it. Two (Almost) bald men fighting over a comb?
Two more players of whom I'm aware to have switched association during their careers are Chris Armas and Diego Gutiérrez, both who played for the US at senior level. Armas played for Puerto Rico in 5 non-competitive senior games during 1993's Caribbean Cup and later went on to switch to the US in 1998. He won 66 caps for them between 1998 and 2005. Gutiérrez was capped once by the US at senior level in 2001 but had played with his native Colombia at under-17 level and under-20 level before this. Clearly, players switching from one association to another isn't all that unusual globally.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 25/06/2011 at 5:14 AM.
I see this mystery 'EdwardT' character is also trying to stir some debate on OWC as regards the article I wrote, but is receiving little in the way of sensible reply. Naturally, he's been cast as a "troll" after three posts.
There's so much wrong there in that reply, it's hard to know where to start. A proper analysis is written right there in front of him in black and white and yet, still, he manages to churn out some warped and incredible perception of reality. There are plenty who peddle the misconception that the Good Friday Agreement is what has allowed for the current situation, but it is certainly a new one to have this guy claiming the the Agreement should technically have had the opposite effect of shutting off the access of Irish nationals in the north to the FAI. "The FAI should give up its territorial claim"... That's just comical. You have to question some people's understanding of how things in life actually operate. How does he imagine players qualify to play for their respective countries around the globe if not generally by their held nationality?The concept of nationality has no legal effect. It may be defined as those of Irish identity (in Ireland). People of Irish nationality make up the nation, a concept that remains undefined in their constitution. It is essentially a voluntary affiliation; anyone can choose to call him/herself Irish. It is for this reason that it has no legal effect. So call yourself whatever you want, you are still from Northern IrelandI'm surprsied people are still talking about the GFA. It has little relevance to the eligibility question. You should read the following article written by an ROI fan. I think it covers all the issues really well and I've attached an extract relating to the GFA. Whether you agree or disagree with the article, at least you'd be fully informed before posting on the matter.
http://playereligibilityinireland.bl...ontext-of.html
"Contrary to popular misconception, the Good Friday Agreement of 1998 has nothing to do with the application of FIFA's statutes on Irish nationality. The Good Friday Agreement was a constitutional document agreed between the British and Irish governments after backing from the majority of the electorate in Northern Ireland that, amongst numerous other things, acknowledged and bilaterally endorsed, as an undisputed right of law, the will of members of Northern Ireland's nationalist community to identify as Irish. It is frustrating to see it continually bandied about in discussions surrounding player eligibility, however, especially when the eligibility of Northern Ireland-born Irish nationals to play for the Republic of Ireland is being attributed to its terms. It is mentioned here in order to discount this misguided belief.
Players born in Northern Ireland have been lining out for FAI teams under FIFA rules identical in effect to those in place today before the Good Friday Agreement. Ger Crossley, Gerard Doherty, Mark McKeever and Tony Shields, for example, were all born in Northern Ireland and, qualifying via their birthright to Irish nationality, played for FAI teams between 1995 and 1997. It would have been difficult for the FAI to turn them away given they were Irish nationals, after all. Countless others have played for Irish teams between the signing of the Good Friday Agreement and the saga involving Darron Gibson that seemed to implant the issue of player eligibility in the minds of Northern Ireland football supporters."
Under the Good Friday Agreement the Irish government gave up its territorial claim over the people and territory of Northern Ireland. Therefore the FAI should give up its territorial claim to Northern Ireland people / players. Simple.
You are fully informed now my old sausage.
Within the Irish constitution, it is fair to interpret the "Irish nation" as synonymous with those who are citizens of the state; distinction is made from those of "Irish ancestry living abroad who share [the Irish nation's] cultural identity and heritage", with whom "the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity". As any non-idiot would know, Irish nationality or citizenship is, of course, governed by legislation. Citizenship is, in essence, the "legal effect" or "legal realisation" of nationality, which can also mean membership of a sovereign state in itself, and both are often used interchangeably. Depending on the context of its use, nationality can be an objective legal entity or a subjective cultural entity. Somehow, this chap is obviously unfamiliar with the very common former meaning. It would also appear that FIFA use a citizenship test to ensure a player's nationality conforms to their rules. Do these people live in bubbles?
He links to the Good Friday Agreement but should probably have another read of it as he appears ignorant of the Irish constitution's current provisions, as amended by the Nineteenth Amendment. The territorial claim might have been removed but it was replaced by the following:
"It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland....
It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island."
The concepts of entitlement and choice now reign supreme; something around which it appears difficult for some thick individuals to get their heads.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 25/06/2011 at 6:30 AM.
It's called 'delusional paranoia'....
See our repetitively circular friend on the WSC site!
Last edited by ArdeeBhoy; 25/06/2011 at 8:54 AM.
Did Ruaidhrí Higgins ever play with the FAI? I know he played with the IFA but this article suggests he played for Ireland: http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk...fifa_1_2780863
Seeing a síneadh fada in the Sentinel is a turn up for the books.SPORTS Minister Carol Ní Chuilín says she won’t ask FIFA to change its rule allowing people born in Northern Ireland - such as Londonderry’s Darron Gibson, Shane Duffy and Ruaidhrí Higgins - to play for the Republic of Ireland.
Not aware that he ever played for Ireland
For anyone interested, I have a NI fan debating with me on the 'FIFA Player Eligibility in the Context of Ireland' Facebook page over whether or not possession of Irish nationality makes someone eligible to declare for the IFA so long as they fulfil the sub-criteria in article 16 clarifying which "Ireland" such a player can represent: http://www.facebook.com/permalink.ph...12663095492254
I believe the IFA advanced this as an alternative argument upon realising that their initial interpretation of the application of article 16 was incorrect, but CAS was not persuaded:The problem we have is that we are not dealing with two independent nations, but one nation and one [insert own description of NI here]. Northern Ireland do not play football as the nation of the either of the passports they represent. Regardless of which passport a player holds, he fulfils the criteria to play for NI via sub-category means - as you have indeed noted.
We are not an independent nation - everyone is entitled to a British or Irish passport... or both... yet we don't represent either nationality exclusively on the international stage.
Are we suggesting that Irish nationals from NI be asked for sub-criteria qualification? Possibly.
Are we suggesting that NI be reviewed with exceptional criteria by FIFA? Possibly.
What we are saying is that we still don't believe it's as clear-cut as the CAS judgement ruled (after all, it's just just a couple of paragraphs!) but the problem for NI and our fans is that the only way we will get a positive outcome from this dispute is that if FIFA step in with an addendum to the Artlicles.
My own thoughts are as follows. Technically, we're dealing with the nationalities of an independent state and a constituent of the British state. Irish nationality is issued by the law of an independent state separate from NI, whereas British nationality is issued by the law of the state of which NI is a constituent, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and NI. Sure, it guided legislation and constitutional amendment in Ireland, but the Good Friday Agreement is not a legislative instrument in NI or elsewhere. It does not cede the Irish state's prerogative to issue Irish citizenship to the British state or NI government. Officially, NI, as a British entity, represents only the British nationality on the international stage as if it were doing so exclusively (after the application of the sub-criteria of article 16), just as Scotland, Wales and England also do. No Irish national is required to fulfil the criteria of article 16 in order to play for the Ireland team, which represents the Irish nationality exclusively on the international stage. Furthermore, even though you may have dual nationals such as Aiden McGeady or Kevin Kilbane playing for Ireland, they're not representing their other held nationality when playing for Ireland. They're solely representing their Irish nationality.The Panel noted that IFA also advanced an alternative argument that Mr Kearns had shared nationality because, as an Irish national (irrespective of his British nationality), he could play for either IFA or FAI and Mr Hunter asserted that it had always been the case that the IFA could select Irish nationals with a territorial connection to Northern Ireland. The absence of Irish nationality from the commentary on Annexe 2 is, he submitted, inconclusive. It was apparent to the Panel that the factual basis for the assertion was controversial and disputed by the FAI’s counsel. Since neither the factual nor legal basis for this argument was sufficiently established, the Panel is in no position to find in its favour.
The effect of Irish nationality law in NI is extra-territorial. Irish nationality is not "native" or "inherent" to NI through the British law that governs the jurisdiction. It spires, legitimately, from another jurisdiction of which the FAI is the international representative association in football.
Just looking at the text of Annexe 2 again, part of which formed the basis of article 16, I see it gives specific mention to the British associations, as if to imply that article 16 might apply to them only, but is this the case?
Does the specific mention of the British associations here rule out the possibility of the article 16, of which this text formed the basis, applying to any associations other than the British associations? I know the Danish example is often cited as another illustration of a situation where article 16 applies, but can we say conclusively, for example, that Faroese-born Danish nationals qualify to play for the Faroe Islands under article 16? Officially, they are nationals of the Kingdom of Denmark, and share Danish nationality with those from Denmark and Greenland, but I understand that the state issues distinct passports to those from each, so possibly each "nationality" is considered distinct in contrast to how there is no evident variation in the nationality of someone of British nationality born in Scotland to someone of British nationality born in Wales.As to the particular position of the British associations, the FIFA Commentary provides as follows (ibidem):
1. There is a specific agreement, stipulating the conditions to play for a national team, for the four British associations. Besides having British nationality, the player needs to fulfil at least one of the following conditions
a) he was born on the territory of the relevant association;
b) his biological mother or father was born on the territory of the relevant association;
c) his grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant association.
2. If a player has a British passport, but no territorial relationship as provided for in conditions a-c above, he can choose for which of the British associations he wants to play.
[Footnote] e.g. a player who was born on the Cayman Islands and holds British nationality can choose to play for any of the four British associations if called up by a British association.
Some other blog pieces on the issue I came across by chance lately include this one by an Enniskillen native based in Scotland in April of 2008: http://www.helium.com/items/977700-s...gibility-rules
There's also this one is by a Canadian observer in March of 2010: http://www.helium.com/items/1773833-...rthern-ireland
Along with the expected referral to the sport as "soccer" and the use of "zees" instead of esses, the piece features such amusing quirks as:
"Specifically, the ruling stated that Northern Irishmen could play for the Republican team - or Republican players could play for the northern team - only if they also had ancestry from that side of the border."
Republicans playing for the IFA; hmm, that'll be the day...
Then, there's this piece by freelance Glasgow-born Irish journalist Phil Mac Giolla Bhain: http://www.philmacgiollabhain.com/team-ireland/
Most of the content is slightly out-dated, but still interesting to get an idea of the various opinions being put forward.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 27/06/2011 at 6:41 PM.
I don't think Mac Giolla Bhain makes a great case for an AI soccer team. In fact he makes a pretty convincing case not to have one.
I'm pretty sure the Canadian guy is using the word "Republican" in a different context to how it's used in NI discussion.
Aye, I guessed that myself. The misuse of local terminology and nomenclature from other conflicts around the world that often creeps into American analyses of the Irish situation is something that amuses me. Always enjoyed this; "Captain Planet Saves Belfast":
I downloaded that a few years ago. It's possibly the strangest thing I ever did see. Not hard to guess the nationalist in it...
Shame though, Sunningdale, the GFA; all wastes of time... what we needed was cross-community bakeries.
Last edited by BonnieShels; 27/06/2011 at 10:01 PM.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
It's all so wrong. The Belfast accent in real life is far more ridiculous.
Besides Sv.D's sterling work v. the usual paranoia, question to DI. Did you ever get registered for/accepted onto WSC, as it would be good to see your input here also.
Presuming you have the time?
Despite your link, couldn't see this debate. That said, see the admin on that page are 'friends' with OWB;Wonder if they returned the compliment ?
Though to be fair, the OWB Admin chastises their members for condoning 'sectarian'* behaviour of some of their fans.
* Not overly fussed myself, just their rank hypocrisy which is far more annoying'.
I got the confirmation e-mail so I might post something if I have a bit of time, although I'm not so sure I'd have a huge deal to add to the debate at present. I'm sure I can find something if needs be.
Ha, no, certainly not. I'm the admin myself. I'll explain lest I get in trouble. I had to "like" the OWC page in order to post on it as I noticed that belief in that myth about Shay Given being born in Altnagelvin hospital in Derry appeared to be surprisingly more prevalent than I'd previously thought. I also wanted to post a link to the piece there. Of course, I've received zilch response as of yet. Probably should have known better.Despite your link, couldn't see this debate. That said, see the admin on that page are 'friends' with OWB;Wonder if they returned the compliment ?
No worries.
Might be worth posting the blog link (am waiting for people to get back to me, re. a 'wider' audience') on there, though you will get a repeat from certain posts on here, from a certain rotund poster, probably?
Likewise, now it's on politics.ie. Though there are some serial loons on there far far worse than them!!!
Similarly YBIG & the other Irish forums (see links section on here?), just to further publicise?
And don't blame you re. the last bit.
Know S.G.Snr. from various trips and he confirmed in chatting, S.G. arrived as you stated.
Was not overly impressed by any suggestion it was elsewhere or 'eligible' for the team in question!
And reckon that poor 'Photoshopping' wouldn't have helped changed that view....
Last edited by ArdeeBhoy; 29/06/2011 at 12:44 PM.
'co. down green' posted it over on YBIG. 'Newryrep' also posted it on the Tartan Army board, although the same old falsehoods and misconceptions are still being peddled out in spite of the article's very visible presence. If anyone is a member of any other football forums - or even the likes of Politics.ie or Boards.ie, as I know they discuss the issue there from time to time - I'd appreciate if they posted it on them. I suppose I could do it myself, although I'd feel like a bit of a whore signing up to make a solitary post. I've attempted to sign up to the Tartan Army board as I'd try to clear a few things up, but the admin doesn't appear to have activated my account yet meaning I'm still unable to post. Maybe they have a stringent screening process similar to that of OWC.
Regarding Shay, I believe his mother was from Castlederg, so he actually would have been eligible to play for NI, but not because "he was born in Derry". There's talk that his brothers were born in Derry, however. Although, I would think even that peculiar considering the general hospital in Letterkenny would be closer to the family home. And there's even a hospital in Lifford itself, although, for some reason, I have a feeling it deals mainly with geriatrics rather than maternity issues.
Will ask his old fella when I next see him....
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