QuoteYou guess right. I kind of guessed that situation would be there though. It'd be down to the FAI to work with the leagues and clubs if they were to go down that route. I'm sure it would not be easy.Originally Posted by Dodge
Howie King, Howie King, Howie King....
You guess right. I kind of guessed that situation would be there though. It'd be down to the FAI to work with the leagues and clubs if they were to go down that route. I'm sure it would not be easy.
legendz, every second post in this thread, you've mentioned "pyramid structure". In the current set up, its not going to happen, no matter how often you say it. No offence. The costs of joining the league is too high. Regionalising the first division might help, but as Dodge said, most of these intermediate/senior clubs see their own league as the pinnacle.
At the moment, any club in the country can apply to become a LOI team subject to criteria. No one wants it. In a pyramid structure only the teams on top of the leagues below would be allowed to join which would restrict things.
As well as that, in a pyramid structure, the geography of the league could get skewed. How many clubs from Limerick or Dublin would get promoted? This would dilute support for existing clubs. Look at the situation in Galway. The extra 2 galway clubs should not have been allowed in, but in a pyramid system, you'd have to let them in.
I know its a dirty word around here but I'm for a Franchise system. Only allow clubs in, who are from an area without an existing LOI club who could develop a support base from that area.
The FAI should grow a pair, draw up a coherent and integrated plan for football at all levels, consult with experts in league organisation from other countries, and then tell the LSL and other clubs that they can either fit into the FAI structure, or forget about competing in FAI competitions and receiving FAI development grants. It should be about football, and what's best for the game in this country, not about some petty little man on a power trip.
John Delaney aside.
I've mentioned it and I'm going to keep mentioning it where I see fit.
In the current set-up it will not happen. In the long-term as I've said, it should be the goal. Dodge did make a good point on clubs seeing their own league as the pinnacle. It's still no reason that FAI can't talk with these clubs about regionalising the Intermediate leagues and link them to the district leagues.
I used to be in agreement on the current structures and on how clubs can apply if they want. At the moment the interest isn't there as you say. If the district leagues were feeding into a regionalised intermediate leagues though, it could work. In sport, position should be earned. It might be restrictive in some respects but for anyone to go places, it should be earned and that brings more respect with it.
The model I was looking at was that 4 district leagues would feed into one division of 8 at that level. Down where I'm from that'd be the top sides of the two Limerick Leagues, Kerry and West Cork feeding into one division.
Support would not get diluted too much. A lot of these clubs from Limerick and Dublin as you say would probably find there level around 3 and 4. There's also criteria which would have to be set. Club's as it stands aren't getting too much support. In an intermediate pyramid structure, clubs from places with populations of about 5000 would probably get to a level or two above their district league. It'd be enough to raise the profile of their clubs within their communities/region and their crowds probably would match the 1st division in some cases. This would widen the appeal of the league and the higher clubs would most likely get an increase in their own support.
Franchise is a dirty word and I'm against it. I was of the opinion Kerry should have a club for Kerry, for the region but now I'm not for it. Clubs are clubs and they should represent what they stand for. There's still nothing to stop a side like Carlow being created for their County if it's what that regions wants and they'll get the support for it.
Allow clubs in who earn their place and meet the criteria set.
They should grow a pair. Dialogue with clubs has to be opened if they are to look at an integrated football league system. The GAA faced opposition from clubs when they started the All-Ireland club championships. It was a similar enough situation in some respects where clubs were top of their regions and didn't want that affected by a Provincial and All-Ireland championship.
You are right, it should be about football and what's good for football in this country.
The league as a whole as it stands has a very small fan base. In a pyramid system from District to Intermediate to the National League, clubs will find their level. Not many will get to highest level and be able to compete nationally. I know of clubs from areas of about 5000 populations and if they had a club a level or two above their own district league as I've mentioned, it would raise the profile of the clubs, they'd get more coverage of it and decent crowds to go with it.
While people are right to say it's not going to happen in the current set-up, there's no reason why it should not be the long-term goal.
Wrong man. its Ken de Mange I hate because of that year.
Was brutal the year after too (when we finished 9th)
54,321 sold - wws will never die - ***
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New blog if anyone's interested - http://loihistory.wordpress.com/
LOI section on balls.ie - http://balls.ie/league-of-ireland/
From yesterday's Mail.
BOHEMIANS, the Premier Division champions, were the only club not to respond to a League of Ireland survey dealing with important issues such as a return to a winter season and the ideal number of teams in the Premier Division. The 12-9 winter v summer split of clubs was replicated in the diverse suggestions for the number of teams in the top flight, which ranged from 10 to 22, while 10 clubs want to scrap the A Championship.
Keep the summer season, but have kick off times at 11 o clock at night.. that way farmers are finished working, no gaa at that time and games played under the floodlights..
Sullane mea culpa on this, it was I who led the cheerleading for an integrated system of leagues, and having worked with such projects I know that they would work in Ireland, a franchise system (examined by colleagues of mine in another jurisdiction) would not be so successful in Ireland, especially in the current environment and with the mess that is football in Ireland. If clubs knew that by entering leagues, or winning promotion, they would have to shape up, then you would fine the stronger (ie more organised) surviving, and the messes finding a level. This "Dublin" fear seems to be used too often by non-Dublin based supporters to actually have a meaning. A genuine club who build from the ground up and work to gain promotion will do so, regardless of where they're from. Such a fear has no base and is rubbished in a small country like Ireland.
On the topic of winter football, I read in the Star today that Roddy is in great support of it, which just cemented my opinion that summer football has to stay.
I still don't believe that a pyramid structure would work in Ireland. If there was such a structure in the morning, who would get promoted?
If you look at the intermediate cup last year and look at the teams that qualified for the quarter finals you had:
Fanad United FC (Donegal) V Avondale United FC (Cork)
Crumlin United FC (Dublin) V Bluebell United FC (Dublin)
Rockmount AFC (Cork) V Dublin Bus FC (Dublin)
Tolka Rovers FC (Dublin) V Drogheda Town FC (Drogheda)
All from areas where LOI clubs already exist. If they were in the league you'd end up diluting support from Cork City, Finn Harps and the Dublin teams.
You could also look at the junior cup:
Willow Park (Athlone) v Clonmel Town (Tipperary)
Regional Utd (Limerick) v Shangan Ath. (Dublin)
Fairview Rgs (Limerick) v Kilmallock FC (Limerick)
St. Michaels (Tipperary) v Pike Rovers (Limerick)
With the exception of the two Tipperary teams, the other clubs are from areas that already have LOI teams.
While all the clubs above have good teams, what would they bring to the LOI in terms of support and facilities? Look at Mervue and Salthill, what have they brought to the league?
At least if you had a franchise system, you could select teams that could possibly build up a support base to sustain a decent semi pro team.
As well as that, the two most successful (in terms of spectators) sports in Ireland are franchises. The GAA and the rugby. How successful would Irish rugby be in Europe if we entered AIB league teams? While I wouldn't agree with setting up Munster FC and Leinster FC, we could surely have clubs from counties without LOI representation and with good support from the FAI and the local leagues underneath them, then they would surely develop a support base.
I know Kildare County and Kilkenny City didn't work out, but I think in the case of Kildare, they were seen as a Newbridge club rather than a Kildare team.
Last edited by sullanefc; 24/10/2010 at 10:46 PM.
I'm confused on how rugby and GAA are franchises? Unless I've been totally wrong and misinformed my whole life, in both codes clubs have almost entirely grown organically, from ground up rather than given a licence to play. You need to remember that provinces have been around in a cultural sense since the early medieval period and indeed pre-date the arrival of christianity here. While the administration system of counties were largely based on tribal boundaries/kingdoms and refined in the 13th century. I can only give examples of clubs I was involved with, both of which were formed by local youths/adults and grew from this to the senior clubs they are today. Likewise most football clubs have grown the same way - even Foras Co-op CC were formed by fans and local business people, others were works teams etc. It has been shown that in established countries franchises largely do not work, and a system of franchises I'm afraid would be doomed to failure. Though would it fail more than what we have at present?
As has been shown in countries with a pyramid system, fanbase grows and shrinks with progression through leagues (up or down). So a well run club with 2-300 at matches in Dublin, playing in a (hypothetical) 6th tier, would expect to increase this incrementally as they rise up the leagues to a level where they can sustain a part-time side and beyond. Whereas a country club would be in an even better position, as is shown in the GAA (as an example of local ties and good promotion). Last year I was at a Junior 2nd Division match in Louth, in a place which can't really be called a village, more than 100 people paid in. This goes down to connecting with the community and also stability, instead of moving from place to place without a home (as is too often the case in football). Compare that to an Intermediate match I watched in Dublin in May, where there were barely 10 people watching. Just because it's in Dublin doesn't mean bigger crowds, everything boils down to organisation, management and consistency.
Can a new county be set up in GAA to compete in the All Ireland?? NO.
Can a new irish rugby club be set up to compete in the Magners League?? NO.
They are called franchises. They are closed shops and the Associations/Unions of both codes decides what teams take part. Whether they idea of a county or province has been around for years or not is irrelevant to whether they are franchises or not.
The part in bold that I have highlighted is absolute fantasy when it comes to Irish football. So a village in Louth gets 100 people into matches. That doesn't guarantee that they are a good team that would win promotion, and even if they did, there is no guarantee that their attendance would rise.
A team from Dublin, with no crowds, could theoretically gather a talented group of players together for a period of 7-8 years and rise through the pyramid. When they get to the LOI level, will they be getting attendances to match Bohs/Shels/Pats?? I don't think so. Chances are, when that group of players finish up, they will drop like a stone back down the leagues having added nothing to the league.
Simply on the "franchise" element, I think you're being rather liberal with the concept, unlike in the USA and Canada the county system in GAA is not a franchise network - if it was then Kilkenny's football licence would be removed and given to, for example, a region of Kerry or Dublin. Likewise the provincial system in rugby was fine tuned to incorporate professional structures, and continues to work on this basis from central contracting (much to many people's chagrin). Plus both are rooted in local clubs which are based on certain areas, normally defined by smaller medieval creations of parishes. The better comparison would be the GAA club system, as I'd presented, or the AIL, so that a small club setting up in a village can pool it's resources and find it's level, wherever that may be.
A franchise system would only work if football in Ireland were going to start from scratch, award each county a club or two and try to make it work, unfortunately there are too many vested interests to have it happen, while setting up a super league would help though that's what we have right now. So is it just that the FAI created Sporting Kerry, Sporting Offaly, Sporting Meath and Sporting Mayo to push matters along.
The "fantasy" as you say is actually reality. They are a club in West Louth who last won a Junior Championship a few years ago but have dropped back from Intermediate after only a year or so up. When they were at the higher level Annaghminnon were getting in excess of 400 at matches, that's what a winning club which is well run and organised, with support from the governing body can do. Attendances normally rise after promotion, even in football, and one only has to look at Sporting Fingal for living proof. Much can be down to bigger away contingents than anything else, however they are paying punters so it counts.
Your theoretical club from Dublin, which could be in Carlow, Midleton, Ballina or Kingscourt would need to bring in reinforcements to support the good group of players in place, that's what most clubs have done. Plus with a well run youth section the 10-12 year olds at club foundation would be 18-20 year olds when the first generation of players leave or retire, so replacements can be gradually introduced. Again support from above helps in this. Clubs can go up and the go bang and drop away again, what they add is very much open to opinion. Home Farm tried full on LOI football and then dropped away, have they contributed to Irish football? Likewise Cobh, Derry, Cork, Shels etc, all went up, down and (in Cobh and Derry's cases) back up again.
I disagree.
It's true, what clubs add is very much open to debate. If a club was to rise up the league, maybe only one would get promoted to Division One every season. That wouldn't affect the Premier much. Clubs with good support and good structures shouldn't have much to fear.
Should any club be good enough to kick on and get to the top tier, well it will have been earned. The best promotion of the league is having it as the pinnacle on a pyramid structure. Reaslistically I can't see it happening anytime soon but it should as I say be the long-term goal. The A Championship as it is is a good interim league.
The League of Ireland only has the same pull in the FAI as the other affiliates. Do you think Delaney is going to attempt to force a structure on the intermediate leagues at the risk of internal political trouble?
In my opinion, we already basically have a pyramid structure anyway - there is nothing stopping a junior or intermediate club making the step up if they want to. The structure is there via the A championship, and was there before to some degree with the election/ re-election process.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
I know he isn't, but it's what I think he should do. It's not just about the League of Ireland, it's about football as a whole in this country. His job should be developing that instead of pursuing political unity for its own sake.
I was saying this weeks ago but have changed my tune on this one. The A Championship as you say is a good interim league and offers a gate-way to the league. The long-term goal though should be a pyramid system. A structure like that would promote the game itself. If a club is run well and they earn a place a level or two above their own district league, it'd do a lot more for the promotion of the game than an application to the A Championship.
I think a 16 team PD is still worth trying, also if we were to move away from summer football, why not be smart about the new season and start it in late Sept when the GAA is almost over.
Run it to the start of June, so we could have a chance of fine weather and long evenings for the end of the season, and by ending this late, the clubs would be fresh enough for the euro games. Also a 2 week break in Feb would prob be the best option (on avg the coldest mth of the year)
Last edited by oriel; 26/10/2010 at 7:30 PM. Reason: ever tried holding a baby and typing ?
#DundalkFC - First Irish club to win an away game in Europe (1963), first Irish club to win points in a group stage in Europe (2016).
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