QuoteCheating is probably a bit strong, more a comment on how to play the referee, something which a certain Richie McCaw does brilliantly every game!Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Is Neil Francis saying here that Ireland should have cheated to win against New Zealand last week: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugb...-29798965.html
Cheating is probably a bit strong, more a comment on how to play the referee, something which a certain Richie McCaw does brilliantly every game!
He's advocating what could be described as simulation though, isn't he?
Yes, he's saying they should have broken the rules, cheated, whatever.
Rugby lost any self-proclaimed moral high ground it might have had a long time ago. Like any sport, they'll do whatever they can get away with to win.
Don't really see much reason to keep highlighting instances of their bullsh*t though. I'd have thought it was obvious to pretty much everybody, given how blatant it is.
Last edited by osarusan; 02/12/2013 at 2:08 PM.
Running down the clock in the last minute of a game is not cheating in my book. It's something similar to football, running the ball to the corner flag and 'arsing about with it there, no intent to play the game just run down the clock, frustrate your opponent and hopefully win a free kick or corner or throw in.
Francis was advocating that some irish player should have stopped the momentum of the AB's, even to the point of giving away a penalty.
Foul play is not cheating.
On the money, Geysir!
I agree (sorry Tets!).
I do wonder if we had been the attacking side whether Owens would have penalised us I know we were in their half and notionally going forward, but it was clear it was a clock run down exercise. But if we had been doing the same thing to get into a drop goal situation, a la Munster at Northampton, would Owens have seen things differently?
I dont think they caught breath to even think about cheating. As soon as NZ got that penalty there was an air of inevitability. Ireland had been out on their feet from about the 65th minute but somehow managed to keep plugging away because of the points they were ahead, but they were really fceked when not in possession, as soon as the penalty was given they were at 6s and 7s trying organise and get across that I dont think they got any time to even think of going in over the top, a high tackle, running offside etc. I dont really remember many rucks once NZ got the ball just constant running and movement off the ball, so given away something at the ruck didnt seem possible, but it all happened so quick even for us watching i cant be sure on that!!
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And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
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The respect for the officials and the opposition, the maturity to lose with grace and win with humility is my son experiences as a teenage rugby player and is something most football teams can only dream of.
Citing poor behaviour, and we are all human, is clutching at straws and these anecdotal examples does not mean they will do what ever they can to win - far from it.
it was this section that I was referring toI interpreted the "obligingly rolling out of the way to get back onside" as "we should have stayed offside (i.e. illegally) to block the New Zealand break". Not sure what the "gap in O'Driscoll's CV" he's referring to is eitherI understand that Ireland were out on their feet, but if McCaw had been playing for Ireland he would have gone in to the breakdown and killed the ball – killed it stone dead. He might have given away a penalty, he might have been carded (not possible) but he would have stopped the All Blacks' momentum dead. It would have meant that having got traction and momentum with their wide game, they would have had to try and go again – very hard to do. They went to the extreme of the pitch four times. They did so unhindered by one Irish player who never thought of stopping their progress illegally. That is what New Zealand do if they have to. So too Australia and South Africa. It doesn't cost them a thought.
I saw Irish players obligingly rolling out of the way to get back onside. We played that 100 seconds like gentlemen, we should have played it like gurriers. It was one of the few gaps in O'Driscoll's CV. I am sure that in the helter-skelter he alone on his team would have had the sangfroid to go in and do something, legal or illegal, to stop New Zealand. It didn't happen.
I imagine the gap means beating nz.he has done almost everything else.
He didn't say that THe cheating bit is out of his game as in not on his CV because he follows up that if he was on the field he would have done this to win the game.
If citing examples of poor behaviour is not allowed, what evidence do you have to support your claim that football teams behave with less maturity than rugby teams?
At pro level from watching every Saturday - if I were to cite regular incidents of poor sportsmanship I'd be banned by the Mods for over use of the forum.
And at junior level I have two boys - one a soccer player and the other rugby - there is a gulf of difference from the attitude and respect of the players, to the abuse of the ref and extending to the appalling bias/abuse I witness of from parents on the side at football games.
You know the bit on telly on a Saturday afternoon where they're not allowed to show the game but as soon as the final whistle blows at 4:50pm they go live and give a match synopsis? All you ever see is the players shaking hands. Once you actually look out for what the players do after a game, I think you'd be surprised how much good old-fashioned sportsmanship there is.
Of course there's some despicable behaviour in football but more often than not it is limited to the same usual suspects.
Point fully taken about underage stuff, although some kids' football coaches I know teach their kids not just to shake hands, but to shake hands properly and to look their opponent in the eye. Yer man Antonio Mantero of www.thecoachdiary.com has this as one of his cornerstones.
My own kid played in a tag rugby tournament (Under 8) for his school last week and after every game the whole thing was about each side going "3 cheers for the other team". It was very sweet and very touching. There were lots of parents, most enthusiastically supporting the kids. It was very audible but no tension or guff like is common in underage football. I heard one story about a kid who was asked why central midfield was his favourite position. He replied that it was because it meant he was always twenty yards from his dad on one touchline and his uncle on the other! Probably an urban myth, but telling enough nonetheless.
But my beef was very capably highlighted by Eamon Sweeney in an article I linked on this thread several months ago. He quoted the IRFU's annual report banging on about rugby's superior values. In my opinion, games don't have values, people do. Better educated people (educated in the broadest sense) tend to behave better than less educated people. Rugby is played by better educated people. As pro rugby becomes more and more commercial, these values disappear. The same cr@p that annoys us about football has been increasingly evident in pro rugby, but I still come across people blind to this who say they won't watch football because of the cheating. Sweeney nailed it - in rugby it's seen as a better class of cheating.
I also think the referee respect thing is overblown. The worst teatment of refs in football in GAA and football is terrible, no dispute. But the uniform and sterile way of interacting with the ref in rugby irritates me. The refs, particularly Nigel Owens, treat grown-up players like kids sometimes. In most football games there's fair banter between players and refs, especially domestic games when there's a common language. My own experience of playing several hundred games of junior football is more like:
Me: FFS ref, that's a clear push.
Ref: shut up keeper, I don't slag you off for sh1t handling
Both of us would laugh and move on.
The flipside of referee respect in rugby is that very little of that type of exchange happens.
There's plenty of good and bad in all sports and if you look at them without an agenda this is evident. My issue with rugby isn't an anti-rugby agenda at all, it's an anti-"rugby guff" agenda and I actually think the view I've spouted on about here since this thread started is now much more of a mainstream view.
One last point: if I was a football manager I'd insist on my players doing a line of honour into the tunnel for the away team. On one hand it's sporting but as a motivational tool being made to face your victorious opponent if you lose is a huge incentive to make sure you win! OK, I'd fear there'd be occasions when there'd be a scrap but still...
Last edited by Stuttgart88; 04/12/2013 at 11:13 AM.
I agree with the vast majority of your post. I would say that my experience of underage level rugby is a genuine respect for the ref. And I'm sure there are petty refs in football as well as rugby, I can recall a few. I think I've seen more good natured exchanges in (Rob Kearney last Saturday) professional rugby than in professional football.
Of course I can see the example of the exchange you cite happening - though my kids are in London and this type of cultural exchange would be a very rare occurrence on a football pitch here.
My gripe is the hackneyed criticism and denigration of rugby on this thread as some spurious means to elevate the values of football.
I'm not trying to elevate the value of football, I'm trying to argue that rugby doesn't entirely deserve the pedestal of virtue on which many of its supporters have placed it.
My gripe is with people (not you) who are willing to ignore the faults of rugby because it doesn't suit them to admit that the game has its faults too. Or who lament the influence of football for some of the things becoming more prevalent in rugby. Witness refs like Nigel Owens telling people 'this isn't soccer'.
To reference a previous post, if you believe that rugby players won't do whatever it takes to win, i respectfully disagree, and believe that there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.
Exactly this.
I think most people's beef with football is the constant barracking of the ref and the ridiculous diving that goes mostly uncondemned. Compare this with rugby, where, to rugby's great credit, the microphones on referees and panels for cited incidents have helped/forced the players to self monitor while on the pitch.
I would love it if FIFA/UEFA would set these things in motion in football, and I genuinely believe it would eradicate so much of both of these problems.
Well, as it stands now, Uefa and Fifa not only are inactive but they actually favour acts of cheating and blatant simulation with reward.
What Francis was talking about in his article was not cheating.
Francis was talking about lying on the ball and giving away clever penalties. That is every bit as much cheating as diving or whatever, the only difference is that it's accepted as part of the game.
While I completely agree with Geysir and Stutts that what Francis advocated wasn't cheating, what is certainly cheapening rugby is the actions of Mark McCafferty and the PRL. Their public statements and bullying tactics are hard to stomach and the possibility of rugby clubs buying premierships and sacking coaches on a regular basis (like Man City) are not far away.
Last edited by gastric; 05/12/2013 at 8:30 AM.
Does it really matter?
Everyone knows rugby has just as many dubious practices as soccer, for decades...
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