Clubs want format changed

[John83]

Um, how do you run a full time professional team on 12k? Is it a Subbuteo team?

I think we can assume he meant per week. Not that I agree with him. Take employers PRSI and income tax out of that, and even running with a squad of 16, you'd be asking people to go pro in a career that ends in the mid 30s on very little money. You might get a few, particularly people who aren't really qualified to do anything else, but for the most part, that's not going to work.

[Longfordian]

What you'd tend to get is a good amount of players from outside of Ireland such as those at Dundalk and Sligo, no offence to intended to anybody. They'd be players that have dropped down the ladder in England or Scotland maybe over a period and wouldn't have worked at anything else. They'd like to stay playing full time football and they go where they get a contract.

[jinxy lilywhite]

Um, how do you run a full time professional team on 12k? Is it a Subbuteo team?

I think we can assume he meant per week. Not that I agree with him. Take employers PRSI and income tax out of that, and even running with a squad of 16, you'd be asking people to go pro in a career that ends in the mid 30s on very little money. You might get a few, particularly people who aren't really qualified to do anything else, but for the most part, that's not going to work.

You are correct I did mean 12k a week.

We only live in Ireland and we can't pay players high wages, if players think the wages over here are too low then they should f off over to england and earn a living there.
Professional players should be using their spare time to educate or reeducate themselves and to set themselves up when retirement. We live in a world where knowledge is power and even the most intelligent will probably have to at a later date re-educate themselves and switch from the sector that they are currently involved in. Why should LOI players be any different.

[Mr A]

We live in a world where knowledge is power and even the most intelligent will probably have to at a later date re-educate themselves and switch from the sector that they are currently involved in. Why should LOI players be any different.

Because most of them can barely tie their shoelaces?

[Ronnie]

You are correct I did mean 12k a week.

We only live in Ireland and we can't pay players high wages, if players think the wages over here are too low then they should f off over to england and earn a living there.
Professional players should be using their spare time to educate or reeducate themselves and to set themselves up when retirement. We live in a world where knowledge is power and even the most intelligent will probably have to at a later date re-educate themselves and switch from the sector that they are currently involved in. Why should LOI players be any different.

But, at lower wages part time contracts are feasible, which are thus more attractive for the player. Yes the clubs would love full timers on 30k per annum, but thats what a part time premier might offer, and its not enough to build for retirement, especially as contracts are usually only for 1 or 2 years.

Whatever about the how Rovers got to where they are now, the current people in charge have a least got some realism into their plans, undoubtedly learning something from the mistakes of others, both in Rovers and in other clubs.

[dahamsta]

TBH I've never understood the obsession with a fully professional league. Yes it should be a goal of the league, but long term. You have to walk before you can run, and the Irish leagues keep falling over just when they've figured out the what those things under their balls are.

[Schumi]

TBH I've never understood the obsession with a fully professional league.

Me neither, especially given the patchy success that full time teams have had. A part-time Rovers team is ahead of full-time Cork, Derry, Dundalk and Sligo teams this year. Galway had a full-time team last year or the year before and only finished midtable, Drogheda took years to get anywhere with their full-time team

[Acornvilla]

if a player cant survive on 400 a week what hope have people with large familys on less than that!?

[John83]

if a player cant survive on 400 a week what hope have people with large familys on less than that!?

It's not about surviving. It's about it just not being worth their while to take that money when they can play as an amateur elsewhere for not much less and earn money and build a longer-lasting career in landscaping or in a bank or whatever at the same time.

[KevB76]

Asking a player to commit to a full time career on 400-500 a week is simply not attractive, when a part time club could also offer the same gross, with more time off and the chance of having a career and income away from football. For a player, really need to earn at least 40k pa to justify full time , not that long ago a lot of players were earning close on 100k pa.

Are you serious?!
€40k pa would be considered a very good income for most of us with a real job, never mind for kicking a ball around a couple of time a week for 9 months!!!
(I have no problem with players earning as much as they can if the clubs could afford it).

[Acornvilla]

dont agree with any of this crap saying 400-500 isnt enough!? dont know what you people are getting paid id love the chanct to play football professionally for that much! most run of the mill jobs will be less than that for much more hours

[boneym]

One of the problems is that our full time professionals do not train hard enough. They only train 3/4 days a week for a few hours. Most part-time teams especially Rovers train as much as them if not more than them.

[Acornvilla]

dont most professional european teams train twice a day 5 days a week?

[pineapple stu]

Are you serious?!
€40k pa would be considered a very good income for most of us with a real job, never mind for kicking a ball around a couple of time a week for 9 months!!!
(I have no problem with players earning as much as they can if the clubs could afford it).

But football has a much higher risk associated with it, for which a player needs to be compensated.

If you were offered, say, a job in a shop for E35k where you knew you'd be kept for years if you wanted and a job as a footballer for E35k where you could be relegated or injured or released after one season and effectively made redundant, you'd take the safer job.

[Ezeikial]

But football has a much higher risk associated with it, for which a player needs to be compensated.

If you were offered, say, a job in a shop for E35k where you knew you'd be kept for years if you wanted and a job as a footballer for E35k where you could be relegated or injured or released after one season and effectively made redundant, you'd take the safer job.

That may be logical, but not necessarily the reality.

[A face]

One of the problems is that our full time professionals do not train hard enough. They only train 3/4 days a week for a few hours. Most part-time teams especially Rovers train as much as them if not more than them.

dont most professional european teams train twice a day 5 days a week?

The rest and recovery is as important as the training, but i'd agree, and its only by comparison, it seems that our pros are not at the same level as other European leagues, and i'd be saying that we are not getting the return for our money.

But football has a much higher risk associated with it, for which a player needs to be compensated.

If you were offered, say, a job in a shop for E35k where you knew you'd be kept for years if you wanted and a job as a footballer for E35k where you could be relegated or injured or released after one season and effectively made redundant, you'd take the safer job.

That may be logical, but not necessarily the reality.

But it has to be the reality. You cant expect players to play fulltime ball for anything under €50,000 if you want a player who is going to give a meaningful contribution, be technically able, who isn't looking to jump ship asap (contracts for 3 years as opposed to 1), and possibly be good enough to get a return on the investment i.e. be able to sell on to other clubs if other clubs are willing to pay obviously (and that definitely is the case, even if Irish clubs haven't capitalised on it yet)

The primary benefit to having a pro setup is players can concentrate on the technical side of their game instead of struggling with fitness half the season. The club then has a better product and can market it better. Having a pro setup allows the club to develop the club and implement structures to enable more streams of revenue to fund the pro setup.

[A face]

Me neither, especially given the patchy success that full time teams have had.

I disagree with that, there definitely has been successes directly from the pro setup, both tangible and intangible. The reason its been patchy is because the penny seems to be dropped into a bottomless pit and clubs haven't grasped that they cant spend money that they aren't earning. Its basically 1st accounting and the lack of common sense or logical reason that is causing the patchiness.

A part-time Rovers team is ahead of full-time Cork, Derry, Dundalk and Sligo teams this year. Galway had a full-time team last year or the year before and only finished midtable, Drogheda took years to get anywhere with their full-time team

Are they all part-time at Rovers? I didn't think so. And even still City as a club has come on leaps and bounds as a result of the full time setup, and it is now something that investors consider investing into as opposed to selling thousands of raffle tickets to fund a part time setup. And that's still on top of two completely disastrous take overs (Arkaga and TNB) and 3-4 years of off the pitch mayhem.

If you take City as a product at the end of 2005, and look at the status/state of it then as regards it being a viable self-sustaining club and tried to analyse how it got to be as such then it would definitely have at least some correlation to us going pro.

For me its proof enough that City is without doubt a club that if run properly, within its means, prudently managing the books, and maximises on the resources available to it then it can be a viable self-sustaining club.

If FORAS and Brian Lennox had teamed up before Arkaga then we wouldn't have had to go through the last 3-4 years, but its lessons learned and valuable lessons that will not be made again.

[Ezeikial]

But it has to be the reality. You cant expect players to play fulltime ball for anything under €50,000 if you want a player who is going to give a meaningful contribution, be technically able, who isn't looking to jump ship asap (contracts for 3 years as opposed to 1), and possibly be good enough to get a return on the investment i.e. be able to sell on to other clubs if other clubs are willing to pay obviously (and that definitely is the case, even if Irish clubs haven't capitalised on it yet)

The primary benefit to having a pro setup is players can concentrate on the technical side of their game instead of struggling with fitness half the season. The club then has a better product and can market it better. Having a pro setup allows the club to develop the club and implement structures to enable more streams of revenue to fund the pro setup.

I agree that say €35k for a full time professional is insufficient to ensure a player finds pro football more enticing then an alternative career, and that €50k is probably more like the minimum benchmark.

Thats in an ideal world, and its starting at the wrong place. It's really a question of what the club can afford and what is sustainable. In simple terms, if a club can sustain a player budget of say €560k (16 players at €35k) then the issue is whether this will attract the desired players to be full time. It may of course mean a mix of full time and part time.

On the other hand if the decision is to be full time at the "fair" money, the club is stretching to find an additional €240k, and hence the "wishfull thinking" model of budgeting that has become so common in the league in recent years.

[A face]

Thats in an ideal world, and its starting at the wrong place. It's really a question of what the club can afford and what is sustainable. In simple terms, if a club can sustain a player budget of say €560k (16 players at €35k) then the issue is whether this will attract the desired players to be full time. It may of course mean a mix of full time and part time.

On the other hand if the decision is to be full time at the "fair" money, the club is stretching to find an additional €240k, and hence the "wishfull thinking" model of budgeting that has become so common in the league in recent years.

And for the record, you are obviously completely right. Clubs have to cut their cloth accordingly. The boom and bust is far more expensive for clubs in the long run. Clubs have to build themselves into a position where it is possible to go full time, when everything is in place to enable it to happen, and to get the best return for that investment if they do go pro.

As someone said earlier, clubs have to walk before they can run. And clubs would do well to concentrate more of their energy into off the pitch efforts so they can bring in the revenue needed to make the move to pro, which would be last on the list.

Thats why i really think that Supporters Trusts are the only way to go in Ireland. Its that level of intervention into clubs and how they are run that is needed for ALL Irish clubs. Its a means of put a horse after the cart and set clubs up to move down the road. Clubs have always been fed hand to mouth and there has never been a long term mechanism for clubs to prosper through fans input, fans who are the biggest group of stakeholders for clubs.

[John83]

...As someone said earlier, clubs have to run before they can walk...

I've a horrible feeling I'm missing some terribly clever pun here.