Have any of you got a vision for the League of Ireland?

[MMVIII]

No, we'd be in Europe this year only for those fellas at Sligo, who got a draw at the Cross in a game that would sent us into Europe if we had won. We drew, and lost the following week to Bohs.

You really are pathetic.

Sorry now, we'll let ye qualify next time if a situation like this comes up again. Grow up.

[Da Real Rover]

Last time I mooted this idea I was offered police protection, but I dont think that this country can support any commercially or competitively successful football structure on its own because of the size of its population and the fact that there are too few conurbations with sufficiently large catchment areas.

Just wrong.
The very fact that 50 years ago LoI grounds were regularly getting 20,000 at games pays testament to the fact that your wrong.
If the LoI managed it before we can certainly do it again without buying into that franchise mickey mouse EPL you have invisiged for us all.

The successful paradigm already exists in the shape of Rugby's Celtic League. The SPL has its own problems, the Irish League is in a worse state than the EL and the best that Cardiff and Swansea can hope for in England is yo-yo status between the top two (or occasionally three) divisions. Of course there are huge challenges, and the delicate issue of mergers and new club structures would need to be grasped, but unless we think outside the box club football in the Celtic nations can only go in one direction. There is a huge potential support for "serious" club football in Ireland, but if you want kids in this country to transfer their allegiance fom the likes of Man Utd, Celtic and Liverpool, you have got to offer them an attractive, quality alternative taking part in a competition that has some status, and playing in stadia that are only one step up from school playing fields.

Sorry but its not our problem, we attend games week in week out, if you want a solution get the barstoolers off their lager arses and go see a live game.
To be suggesting that we bend over backwards and see the disolution of our clubs and history for the appeasment of some barstooler for his bi-annual visit to a domestic football ground well you know where you can go.
The responisbility lies with those in Ireland who follow foreign teams not with those who follow their local teams and domestic league.

As I have said before, football is the last economic sector where it is is necessary for Irish people to emigrate in order to succeed.

Define success.

We are producing and exporting more players to Uk clubs than ever before and at present all too few of them realise their potential at either club or international level. If Irish clubs generated enough revenue to attract and keep more of our best players in Ireland, it would inevitably assist our international team as well, but this really does require very radical thinking.

Really couldnt give a toss about our national team, its just been hyjacked by the event junkey barstoolers, its why Landsdowne is a joke.
In comparison to the atmosphere teams had to enjure in Dalymount 40 years ago theres no comparison, but thats barstoolers for you.

Transnational league and cup structures will inevitably happen, its a question of whether we want to be a part of it or remain one of Europe's most impoverished footballing backwaters.

Not really, its a question of whether barstoolers will follow their local team and be football supporters or continue to be the loyal Sky consumers that they are.
This is not something to be laid at our door, as I said before the majority of LoI fans go over and above the required so maybe its time for the prawn sandwich brigade to shoulder a bit of responsibility.
But thats not really going to happen is it, one of lifes uncomfortable truths.

[endabob1]

Just wrong.
The very fact that 50 years ago LoI grounds were regularly getting 20,000 at games pays testament to the fact that your wrong.
If the LoI managed it before we can certainly do it again without buying into that franchise mickey mouse EPL you have invisiged for us all.

And of course all facets of life are just as they were 50 years ago

I know I've bene out of the country for a few years but it's a shame the way things have just fallen apart, RTE no longer exists, Fianna Fail are running the country like a milatary Dictatorship, and all the while it's the Catholic Church who are really running the show..... hmm now that you mention it, you might be on to something....

[northwestexile]

Of course there are huge challenges, and the delicate issue of mergers and new club structures would need to be grasped, but unless we think outside the box club football in the Celtic nations can only go in one direction.
I think it's a bit too simplistic to say "look at rugby they are doing well lets change to a provincial set up" You have to remember that Irish provincial teams have been around for years and professional rugby is still a new product in world sport and as such could set up competitions that suited them. It would be a lot harder for the Celtic nations to set up a football league with UEFA FIFA FAW SFA FAI IFA all having to be in agreement and I can't really see that happening. I cant see provincial teams getting the suppoort either. If you look at the impact of Super 14 rugby on New Zealand you might not agree that it's a cure for all ills.
I do agree that radical thinking is needed but the proposal you put forward I think would face too many barriers.

[ped_ped]

Really couldnt give a toss about our national team, its just been hyjacked by the event junkey barstoolers, its why Landsdowne is a joke.
In comparison to the atmosphere teams had to enjure in Dalymount 40 years ago theres no comparison, but thats barstoolers for you.

Em... just a random thought:

You know how if you wanna get tickets to, for example, Tipperary vs Kilkenny in the All Ireland this year, you would most likely need to go to your local GAA club?

I know the FAI would never go for it, but if International Tickets were available through local LOI clubs... surely that'd be an incentive?

[BohsPartisan]

My vision is as follows:

A 16 or 18 Team all Ireland league, play each other twice. Fair enough there'd be a quality gulf between top and bottom, but what league doesn't have that, and I firmly believe that the Athlone's of this world need to be playing bigger clubs week in week out to progress on and off the park.

Stadia with propper terracing ala Germany for those fans who want to stand and generate atmos. BYOB. Family sections as far away from these areas as possible.

End stupid fines that clubs can't afford, turn a blind eye to smokes and flares.

Get rid of the majority of stewards. There's too many. Atmos sections to be self policing. No Garda inside grounds.

FAI/IFA regional acadamies with a draft system into the league.

[irishultra]

I just never understood why there can't be a massive push at getting the League into the publics imagination.

Is this coming from the media or something? Sometimes I get the impression that they actually think the English League is our league.

I just found out today that a few lads from my old school have taken Shamrock Rovers as their LOI club, I was shocked to hear this but it proves if you make a deal of the league and the clubs in it then people will support them.

All-Ireland League has to happen!!!!!

[Da Real Rover]

And of course all facets of life are just as they were 50 years ago

Link to where I stated that?
As for the rest, funny stuff......

[sheao]

I would love to see more grounds in the LOI full for matches.
The amount of empty seats in a LOI ground on matchday is shocking to be honest .

[peadar1987]

I don't care bout the number of teams in the premier division, I don't care whether matches are played on Fridays, Saturdays, or at 4.30 AM on Tuesday mornings, and I don't care if we have an occasional away trip to Linfield or Portadown.

All I care about is getting people through turnstiles. It we do that, the rest will come eventually. More people will inevitably lead to more money, more money will lead to more success.

As for an international, provincial system, my feelings are summed up in this post I made on elevenaside.com:

Where is the money going to come from for this proposed Celtic League?

If the teams are not instantly competitive in Europe, no barstooler will watch them. No LOI supporter will watch them either. Therefore you will need as many as 20 players for each team, who will cost between 10 and 15 million just to get crowds surpassing the current LOI ones.

That’s 800 million euro.

Then you’ll need stadia, at least 3 of them. Lansdowne Road would do for Leinster FC, but stadia of similar size would have to be built in Ulster, Munster and Connacht. And would they even be full every week? Sure you’d get 50 000 coming to see Celtic, Rangers, or a Champions’ League game against Barcelona, but what about a mid-table game between Connacht and South Wales Dragons, or Ulster and Kilmarnock? You’d be very lucky to get 25 000

Anyway, we’re up to a billion euro already, and we haven’t paid any wages, signing-on fees, agents fees or marketing.

Imagine what even an injection of a tenth of that figure, 100 million euro, could do for the current LOI. Excellent stadia for all 22 league clubs, top class training facilities, and a widespread professional marketing campaign.

Between the four provinces you could probably pull in maybe 70 000 people a week for your billion euro (Only half the teams would be playing at home, obviously). For a tenth of that, I’d say we could improve the standard of the LOI so average attendances are close to 7000.

So put simply, the provincial idea just can’t compete with the current system. Football is a different game to rugby, and we can’t solve our problems the same way.

Peter

[northwestexile]

Stadia with propper terracing ala Germany for those fans who want to stand and generate atmos. BYOB. Family sections as far away from these areas as possible.

End stupid fines that clubs can't afford, turn a blind eye to smokes and flares.

Two good points in my opinion. Why are clubs like Finn Harps building all seater stadiums? Why this big move to all seater stadia? It cant be for European games as there are only about 3 home games a year for clubs that do well and there really isnt going to be a problem of crowd trouble. They manage it in Germany pretty well. IMO in the LOI it should be all terraces behind the goals. It makes for a better atmosphere.
And fines for clubs whos fans let off flares and smoke is a joke. If its done by responsible people in a controlled manner it can be great. We are not idiots for god sake.

[BohsPartisan]

Two good points in my opinion. Why are clubs like Finn Harps building all seater stadiums? Why this big move to all seater stadia? It cant be for European games as there are only about 3 home games a year for clubs that do well and there really isnt going to be a problem of crowd trouble. They manage it in Germany pretty well. IMO in the LOI it should be all terraces behind the goals. It makes for a better atmosphere.
And fines for clubs whos fans let off flares and smoke is a joke. If its done by responsible people in a controlled manner it can be great. We are not idiots for god sake.

My feeling is that the powers that be see the "success" (superficial ad that may be for the majority of clubs) of the Premiership and are trying to emulate it. The thing is though that what they are really trying to do is provide an inferior version of something Irish people already have ready access to - sanitised corporatised sport. If we want to succeed we need to follow a different model and provide the public with a different type of product to what is on offer accross the water.

[third policeman]

I think it's a bit too simplistic to say "look at rugby they are doing well lets change to a provincial set up" You have to remember that Irish provincial teams have been around for years and professional rugby is still a new product in world sport and as such could set up competitions that suited them. It would be a lot harder for the Celtic nations to set up a football league with UEFA FIFA FAW SFA FAI IFA all having to be in agreement and I can't really see that happening. I cant see provincial teams getting the suppoort either. If you look at the impact of Super 14 rugby on New Zealand you might not agree that it's a cure for all ills.
I do agree that radical thinking is needed but the proposal you put forward I think would face too many barriers.

You maybe right, but Rugby had some very big barriers to overcome as well. Not least the very idea of professionalism. Financial and media imperatives will force football to change and FIFA, UEFA and the domestic FA's will adapt in order to keep club soccer in existence.

On a broader note I am puzzled by some of the sentiments on this thread. It seems that some people accept that the EL is facing dire commercial threats but dont really want anything to change. There is a simple reason why you wont get 20k people attending LoI games notwithstanding the profound cultural and social changes that have taken place, and that's becuase most of the stadia cannot physically acoomodate these numbers. And what is the point of disparaging and abusing so-called "bar stoolers?" If you dont want people who are not currently LoI supporters sullying the integrity of this league then stop complaining. Surely the declining attendances, the exodus of playing talent and the failure to improve standards should all be encouraged as a means of keeping unwanted elements away!

[endabob1]

Just wrong.
The very fact that 50 years ago LoI grounds were regularly getting 20,000 at games pays testament to the fact that your wrong.
If the LoI managed it before we can certainly do it again without buying into that franchise mickey mouse EPL you have invisiged for us all.

Here it is again as you obviously missed it the first time.

You're saying that because the LOI was able to get 20,000 (I really would like some hard evidence on this as opposed to rose-tinted anecdotal evidence) 50 years ago when life was very very different, no television, limited Radio, limited transport, no sex before marriage, less disposable income, no access to internet porn etc, etc, etc it makes it feasible today & you think that's a strong argument.

[osarusan]

It seems that some people accept that the EL is facing dire commercial threats but dont really want anything to change.

This is not true. We want lots of things to change, but we disagree about how to best effect this change. Some people, including myself, think that an AIL will not address any of the core problems of football in this country.

There is a simple reason why you wont get 20k people attending LoI games notwithstanding the profound cultural and social changes that have taken place, and that's becuase most of the stadia cannot physically acoomodate these numbers.

The simple reason why we don't get 20,000 at games is because not enough people are interested in domestic football. The number of occasions where fans have been turned away due to attendance having reached capacity is virtually nil. And the situation would remain the same even in an AIL in my opinion.

The fact remains that even in an AIL, most of the games will be in the same grounds against the same teams as now. The fact that most clubs are tightening their belts and some are talking about part-time football seems to indicate (to me at least) that we are not going to see any great improvement in the standard of football. So what reason is there to believe that more people will go to watch (for example) Bohs versus Derry, or Cork versus St. Pats, than currently go?

People talk about increased attendances but apart from Linfield, I don't think any of the IL teams would attract any more spectators than we currently get.

Also, increased TV money is often mentioned, but who will pay to cover the AIL? Considering RTE don't want to cover the LOI, and the BBC provides little more than minimal coverage of the IL, I'm not sure that an amalgamation of the two will suddenly have channels vying to cover it.

I'd actually like to see an AIL, but I think that without some serious measures taken to force clubs to be more sensible in their approach to spending, any AIL would have the same problems that the LOI does at the moment (can't really say I know that much about the IL).

And what is the point of disparaging and abusing so-called "bar stoolers?" If you dont want people who are not currently LoI supporters sullying the integrity of this league then stop complaining.

Agreed. I've been saying this for a long time.

[eelmonster]

(I really would like some hard evidence on this as opposed to rose-tinted anecdotal evidence)

I don't think PineappleStu's attendance thread goes back 50 years (just checked, it doesn't), Jim Murphy's History of DFC cites crowds of between 4000-8000 for league matches in Oriel during the 60s, but crowds of over 20,000 were the norm for end of season deciders, cup finals and big European games. For example, 23,000 went to see Dundalk play Zurich in the European Cup in 1963 and a crowd of 24,000 turned out to see Waterford play Rovers in Milltown in 1966. Both figures are substantiated by gate receipts.

[Bluebeard]

As far as I know the pre 1980s records are mostly based on gate receipts - in Miltown the estimated numbers apparently often exceeded the gate. In Kilcohan, huge crowds were the norm for games with Rovers, and end of season clashes. From what I can glean from talking to fans from the era, the average numbers, while better than anything we have had in the RSC I suspect, were generally down dramatically - by half and more - for games against the more mundane opposition.

[endabob1]

I don't think PineappleStu's attendance thread goes back 50 years (just checked, it doesn't), Jim Murphy's History of DFC cites crowds of between 4000-8000 for league matches in Oriel during the 60s, but crowds of over 20,000 were the norm for end of season deciders, cup finals and big European games. For example, 23,000 went to see Dundalk play Zurich in the European Cup in 1963 and a crowd of 24,000 turned out to see Waterford play Rovers in Milltown in 1966. Both figures are substantiated by gate receipts.

So would you describe these attendances as "regular"? I think there is a lot of misty eyed romanticism for the golden era where the locals merrily skipped along to Miltown, Dalymount, St Mels on a Sunday afternoon to watch their local heroes in action.

My point was that like it or not there are far more distractions now plus in terms of live support Rugby & GAA have undoubtedly stolen a march on domestic football but even in the golden era the games you cite (and I have no reason to doubt their accuracy) these big numbers are one off's.

There are lots of more recent examples of big crowds Derry City were pulling close to 10,000 (from memory) when they joined the league, Cobh's Cup run in the mid 80's pulled in crowds in excess of 10,000 (again from memory) but the point is these are not regular or in Derry's sustained beyond the novelty value of the new beginning (a fact Rovers would do well to keep in mind I think).

[eelmonster]

So would you describe these attendances as "regular"?

That depends on how the word is applied. There were regularly crowds in excess of 20,000 at cup finals, European matches and so on, between the 1920s and 1970s (almost every season). You doubted that the League of Ireland attracted those numbers, I was simply offering you the 'hard evidence' sought. The quotidian weekly (ha) attendances were, in Dundalk's, case (going on Jim Murphy's figures alone) in the range of between 2000 and 8000, depending on who the club was playing and how successful a season the club were having: there was a crowd of 4000 for the first Louth derby at Oriel in the 1963; 7500 people paid in to see Rovers (they were only there for the Rovers -- just to contextualise that figure, it was the 8th league game of the 63/64 season, oh, and Dundalk won). That there are greater distractions now is obvious, but Rovers have proven that if you market the product correctly and have (use of [only joking]) the facilities, more people will go to watch their local LoI team play.

[L.T.F.C.]

my vision.
Simple. A league with consequences for fuucking up. This idea of operating over the 65% cap throughout the season but ending up under the cap at the end is pure arse.
Where if you do fuuck up, you get a rake of points taken away instead of fines. Keep the money in the clubs.
The fai told me that the referee weekly review and courses started nine years ago. How come there has been no significant improvement the past nine years - refs from outside dub.
The childer support there own teams from there own area.