Page 134 of 135 FirstFirst ... 3484124132133134135 LastLast
Results 2,661 to 2,680 of 2685

Thread: Potentially eligible players thread

  1. #2661
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,104
    Thanks
    3,205
    Thanked 3,560 Times in 2,185 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by IsMiseSean View Post
    Sky commentator on the Armenia vs Poland game just said James Tarkowski is qualified to play for England, Ireland & Poland.
    Anyone know more?
    Tarkowski was born and bred in Manchester. According to Wikipedia:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Tarkowski's paternal grandfather left Poland for England after the Second World War, and married a woman of Irish descent. Tarkowski is therefore eligible for both the English and Polish national teams.
    Assuming the info is correct, the Irish connection is probably too distant if his grandmother was only of Irish descent.

  2. #2662
    First Team IsMiseSean's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2004
    Location
    @GalwayCalcio
    Posts
    1,517
    Thanks
    308
    Thanked 223 Times in 150 Posts
    Shame, he would have been a good addition if we got him on board.

  3. #2663
    Seasoned Pro CraftyToePoke's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    3,235
    Thanks
    794
    Thanked 512 Times in 332 Posts
    Young lad at Leicester Conor Tee - http://www.mayonews.ie/sports/30906-...leicester-city
    Eligible and willing by the looks of it.

  4. Thanks From:


  5. #2664
    First Team
    Joined
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,882
    Thanks
    428
    Thanked 605 Times in 385 Posts
    Interesting. Best of luck to him. Bad timing for him given how well our under 19s are going.

    Bad statement by the uncle though- I'm sure his mother lived in Ireland long enough to acquire citizenship. That's the kind of statement that would deter Tee's own kids of playing for Ireland!

  6. #2665
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,104
    Thanks
    3,205
    Thanked 3,560 Times in 2,185 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Olé Olé View Post
    Interesting. Best of luck to him. Bad timing for him given how well our under 19s are going.

    Bad statement by the uncle though- I'm sure his mother lived in Ireland long enough to acquire citizenship. That's the kind of statement that would deter Tee's own kids of playing for Ireland!
    The uncle's statement is technically correct. He's quoted as saying:

    "He wants to play for Ireland and the Leicester Under 18 manager has been in contact with the FAI. If he was to play, he would actually qualify through his granny as Maureen [his mother] was born in England before we moved home not long after."

    Tee's mother is an automatic Irish national from birth on account of the fact that she was born to Irish citizens who were born in Ireland - I don't think the uncle is denying that - but as she herself was not born in Ireland, Tee's birth would have to be registered in the Foreign Births Register for him to acquire Irish citizenship. The article 7 criteria would apply to him then as he isn't a national from birth and the only criterion he satisfies is 7(c), relating to grandparentage from the territory of the relevant association.

    If Tee has kids in the future, the only way they'd be eligible to play for Ireland (under present regulations and assuming his partner/the mother wouldn't be an Irish national who was born in Ireland) would be if the kids are born in Ireland or acquire Irish citizenship whilst having also lived in Ireland for five years (ordinarily after the age of 18).

  7. #2666
    Capped Player
    Joined
    May 2004
    Posts
    16,522
    Thanks
    5,010
    Thanked 3,493 Times in 1,977 Posts
    Teo is limited but will be in good company (think about it)


  8. #2667
    First Team
    Joined
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,882
    Thanks
    428
    Thanked 605 Times in 385 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    The uncle's statement is technically correct. He's quoted as saying:

    "He wants to play for Ireland and the Leicester Under 18 manager has been in contact with the FAI. If he was to play, he would actually qualify through his granny as Maureen [his mother] was born in England before we moved home not long after."

    Tee's mother is an automatic Irish national from birth on account of the fact that she was born to Irish citizens who were born in Ireland - I don't think the uncle is denying that - but as she herself was not born in Ireland, Tee's birth would have to be registered in the Foreign Births Register for him to acquire Irish citizenship. The article 7 criteria would apply to him then as he isn't a national from birth and the only criterion he satisfies is 7(c), relating to grandparentage from the territory of the relevant association.

    If Tee has kids in the future, the only way they'd be eligible to play for Ireland (under present regulations and assuming his partner/the mother wouldn't be an Irish national who was born in Ireland) would be if the kids are born in Ireland or acquire Irish citizenship whilst having also lived in Ireland for five years (ordinarily after the age of 18).
    I was absolutely convinced that because his mother was an Irish national by virtue of having lived in Ireland for the extended period of time then he qualified through her. So, to clarify what you're saying, if someone like Noe Baba were to have a son whilst he's in England, that son wouldn't clarify for Ireland because Baba wasn't born here?

  9. #2668
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Elm Valley, Blackpool
    Posts
    11,593
    Thanks
    2,143
    Thanked 2,485 Times in 1,705 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    Teo is limited but will be in good company (think about it)
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?


  10. #2669
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,104
    Thanks
    3,205
    Thanked 3,560 Times in 2,185 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Olé Olé View Post
    I was absolutely convinced that because his mother was an Irish national by virtue of having lived in Ireland for the extended period of time then he qualified through her.
    As we know, in order to play for Ireland a player must first be an Irish national. If the player is an Irish national from birth (by virtue of having been born in Ireland to an Irish national or having been born outside Ireland to an Irish national who was born in Ireland), they satisfy article 5 of FIFA's eligibility regulations. However, if they're a naturalised Irish national or an Irish national who has acquired Irish nationality after birth, they must further satisfy one of the criteria outlined in article 7 (i.e. either: having been born in Ireland, having a parent who was born in Ireland, having a grandparent who was born in Ireland or having been resident in Ireland for five years after the age of 18, although the FIFA Players' Status Committee has granted exceptions in place of a strict application of the fourth criterion when a strict application can be demonstrated to be prejudicing the footballing career of a player who has lived in the relevant territory for five years from any age).

    Tee's mother will have been an Irish national from birth, despite her birth in England, because she was born of Irish nationals who were born in Ireland. The process by which Tee (who won't have been an Irish national from birth) was able to become an Irish citizen (assuming he has done so already), however, is outlined here on the Citizens' Information website. It states:

    "If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was born outside Ireland, then you are entitled to become an Irish citizen.

    If your parent derived Irish citizenship in another manner, for example, through marriage, adoption or naturalisation, and was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, you can become an Irish citizen.

    If the parent through whom you derive Irish citizenship was deceased at the time of your birth, but would have been an Irish citizen if alive at that time, you are also an Irish citizen. Also, you derive citizenship through an Irish parent whether or not your parents were married to each other at the time of your birth.

    Claiming Irish citizenship: Before you can claim Irish citizenship, you must have your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register.... If you are entitled to register, your Irish citizenship is effective from the date of registration – not from the date when you were born.

    ...

    If one of your grandparents is an Irish citizen who was born in Ireland, but neither of your parents was born in Ireland, you may become an Irish citizen. You will need to have your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register...."

    So, to clarify what you're saying, if someone like Noe Baba were to have a son whilst he's in England, that son wouldn't clarify for Ireland because Baba wasn't born here?
    The hypothetical son wouldn't be an Irish national from birth, although (as outlined in the quoted Citizens' Information segment above) he would be entitled to apply for and acquire Irish citizenship via the registration of his birth on the Foreign Births Register. Nevertheless, I'm not sure how he would qualify to play football for Ireland if he doesn't satisfy one of the article 7 criteria. It's an interesting question and not one I'd really thought of until now.

  11. Thanks From:


  12. #2670
    Capped Player
    Joined
    May 2004
    Posts
    16,522
    Thanks
    5,010
    Thanked 3,493 Times in 1,977 Posts
    Me
    - Irish national born in UK to Irish born Irish national parents
    - Raised in Ireland

    My kids
    - Born in UK to non-Irish born Irish national parent
    - Raised in UK

    So my kids qualify only since acquiring citizenship via the FBR but not at birth and they also qualify via Art 7 (grandparent). In fact art 7 is a mandatory condition, but mutually dependent on FBR eligibility anyway. Yeah?

    FBR process was a pain in the **** I can tell you.

  13. #2671
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Elm Valley, Blackpool
    Posts
    11,593
    Thanks
    2,143
    Thanked 2,485 Times in 1,705 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    Me
    - Irish national born in UK to Irish born Irish national parents
    - Raised in Ireland

    My kids
    - Born in UK to non-Irish born Irish national parent
    - Raised in UK

    So my kids qualify only since acquiring citizenship via the FBR but not at birth and they also qualify via Art 7 (grandparent). In fact art 7 is a mandatory condition, but mutually dependent on FBR eligibility anyway. Yeah?

    FBR process was a pain in the **** I can tell you.
    And yet only one of them passes the gut test...
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?


  14. #2672
    Capped Player
    Joined
    May 2004
    Posts
    16,522
    Thanks
    5,010
    Thanked 3,493 Times in 1,977 Posts
    I walked into that.

  15. #2673
    Capped Player
    Joined
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    13,845
    Thanks
    1,495
    Thanked 2,338 Times in 1,592 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    As we know, in order to play for Ireland a player must first be an Irish national. If the player is an Irish national from birth (by virtue of having been born in Ireland to an Irish national or having been born outside Ireland to an Irish national who was born in Ireland), they satisfy article 5 of FIFA's eligibility regulations. However, if they're a naturalised Irish national or an Irish national who has acquired Irish nationality after birth, they must further satisfy one of the criteria outlined in article 7 (i.e. either: having been born in Ireland, having a parent who was born in Ireland, having a grandparent who was born in Ireland or having been resident in Ireland for five years after the age of 18, although the FIFA Players' Status Committee has granted exceptions in place of a strict application of the fourth criterion when a strict application can be demonstrated to be prejudicing the footballing career of a player who has lived in the relevant territory for five years from any age).
    ...

    If one of your grandparents is an Irish citizen who was born in Ireland, but neither of your parents was born in Ireland, you may become an Irish citizen. You will need to have your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register...."



    The hypothetical son wouldn't be an Irish national from birth, although (as outlined above) he would be entitled to apply for and acquire Irish citizenship via the registration of his birth on the Foreign Births Register. Nevertheless, I'm not sure how he would qualify to play football for Ireland if he doesn't satisfy one of the article 7 criteria. It's an interesting question and not one I'd really thought of until now.
    Assuming Noe settles down somewhere outside Ireland.
    I'd say Noe's kids could well qualify under art 5.
    "Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the association of that country. "

    That example you gave (in that link), Breel Embelo, he was born in Cameroon to Cameroon citizens, who later emigrated to Switzerland. However, that is not the same situation that Noe's kids would face. His children would be born to an Irish citizen.
    The birth of Noe's kids would have to be registered (FBR) but the kids do not have to reside in Ireland in order to acquire that Irish nationality.
    Last edited by geysir; 13/10/2017 at 2:18 PM.

  16. #2674
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,104
    Thanks
    3,205
    Thanked 3,560 Times in 2,185 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    Me
    - Irish national born in UK to Irish born Irish national parents
    - Raised in Ireland

    My kids
    - Born in UK to non-Irish born Irish national parent
    - Raised in UK

    So my kids qualify only since acquiring citizenship via the FBR but not at birth and they also qualify via Art 7 (grandparent). In fact art 7 is a mandatory condition, but mutually dependent on FBR eligibility anyway. Yeah?
    That's pretty much spot on, aye. Registration on the FBR is just the means of acquiring Irish citizenship. The mechanism is primarily a concern of the Irish government (seeing as they oversee it) rather than FIFA. It's only significant to FIFA in terms of determining whether it renders a subject an Irish citizen from birth or post-birth, so FIFA's eligibility regulations can then be applied to the Irish citizen to test if they're eligible to play for the FAI; if they've been a citizen from birth, only article 5 applies, but if they've acquired citizenship post-birth (such as via registration on the FBR), they must further satisfy one of the criteria in article 7.

    FBR process was a pain in the **** I can tell you.
    Just looking at what's required, it does seem like a complete ball-ache: https://www.dfa.ie/passports-citizen...foreign-birth/

    Fair play for going through that (twice?).

  17. #2675
    Capped Player
    Joined
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    13,845
    Thanks
    1,495
    Thanked 2,338 Times in 1,592 Posts
    Once one reads and understand Article 8, then Article 7 is more understandable.
    It's a direct contradiction to interpret that Noe's boy (Noe Junior) could not play for Ireland without satisfying 5 years residency as stipulated by article 7, but yet could declare for Ireland without any problem under article 8.

    It's clear that the purpose of article 7 is to prevent the easy acquisition (for a senior player) of the right to declare for another country, via acquiring their nationality and secondly it's to prevent the exploitation of minors. In practice, the criteria in article 7 is not used against bona fide dual nationals (as Sepp would call them). Imo Noe's children would be bona fide dual nationals.

    In regards to minors acquiring a new nationality and their application to play for that new country, undir article 7 FIFA can accept the new nationality of children born to refugees and even immigrants merely in search of a better life.
    But proof of such needs to be supplied to FIFA in order for them to be convinced that the young footballer was not 'imported' as a young minor in order to exploit their football talent.

    A dual national like Noe Junior, born in England to an Irish citizen, could be selected and play for Ireland. He does not need to satisfy Article 7 criteria. He does not need residence requirements in order to acquire his Irish nationality. He has a birth right to dual nationality, a nationality which is activated after the foreign birth is registered . Noe Junior then presents his irish passport to the uefa match official as evidence.

    Should Noe Junior first play for England underage at a competitive level, being a dual national he can still declare for Ireland under the auspices of article 8, as long as he was an Irish national before he played for England in an official (underage) competition.
    I even doubt that part in bold is strictly applied by FIFA, but it's just a doubt.
    Last edited by geysir; 13/10/2017 at 7:35 PM.

  18. #2676
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,104
    Thanks
    3,205
    Thanked 3,560 Times in 2,185 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    Assuming Noe settles down somewhere outside Ireland.
    I'd say Noe's kids could well qualify under art 5.
    "Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the association of that country. "

    That example you gave (in that link), Breel Embelo, he was born in Cameroon to Cameroon citizens, who later emigrated to Switzerland. However, that is not the same situation that Noe's kids would face. His children would be born to an Irish citizen.
    The birth of Noe's kids would have to be registered (FBR) but the kids do not have to reside in Ireland in order to acquire that Irish nationality.
    But the citizenship of Noe Baba's hypothetical kids will have been acquired after their birth (not from their birth) so surely article 7 also comes into effect, as outlined below:

    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    Article 5 of the FIFA Regulations Governing the Application of the Statutes (Principle)

    Notion of permanent nationality

    Yann first clarified that "permanent nationality not dependent on residence" can refer to both nationality from birth (automatic) and nationality acquired via familial inheritance or a naturalisation mechanism. Article 5.1 is specifically worded the way it is to distinguish from temporary nationality dependent on residence and to preclude the latter form of nationality from rendering players eligible to play for international teams. He said that the mention of "residence" in this article has nothing to do with the fact that most states require an applicant to reside on their soil before naturalisation, nor does it mean that naturalisations cannot be considered permanent and not dependent on residence; it's referring to something else. 

    To provide an example of a temporary nationality (dependent on residence), he mentioned the Vatican Swiss Guards who receive the Vatican nationality during their stay in Rome but lose it when they leave. So, as I was saying, naturalisations can and do fall under the "permanent nationality not dependent on residence" umbrella too (unless they're temporary and/or dependent on residence for a temporary duration whilst the holder resides in the relevant state), but obviously further invoke article 7 as they will, by their nature, amount to the acquisition of a new nationality not automatic from birth. (Article 7 is invoked when a permanent nationality not dependent on residence is newly acquired at any age post-birth and secondary to an already-held birth nationality or birth nationalities.)

    There is further info on the distinction and confirmation of this meaning of the reference to "residence" here: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affe...3_en_33447.pdf
    The link to the post mentioning the case of Embolo (a naturalised Swiss citizen) was only to provide background information on the FIFA PSC exemption process in respect of article 7(d). I wasn't suggesting Embolo's case was relevant to the cases of Tee (an Irish citizen post-birth via registration of his birth on the FBR on account of an Irish citizen parent and/or Irisg citizen grandparentage born in Ireland) or Baba's hypothetical kids (Irish citizens post-birth via registration of their births on the FBR on account of a naturalised Irish citizen parent).

  19. #2677
    Capped Player
    Joined
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    13,845
    Thanks
    1,495
    Thanked 2,338 Times in 1,592 Posts
    As I wrote, the conditions of article 8 and FIFA practice proves my interpretation.
    I don't see any precedent to support your opinion Danny.

    Just because Noe Junior has to have his birth registered, does not make him ineligible to represent Ireland unless he satisfies article 7 conditions.
    One his birth is registered he would be activating his birthright and become a bona fide dual national, not acquiring a new nationality.
    Article 7 is aimed at restricting players ability to exploit loopholes and declare for a new country that they previously had no connection with.

  20. #2678
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,104
    Thanks
    3,205
    Thanked 3,560 Times in 2,185 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    Once one reads and understand Article 8, then Article 7 is more understandable.
    It's a direct contradiction to interpret that Noe's boy (Noe Junior) could not play for Ireland without satisfying 5 years residency as stipulated by article 7, but yet could declare for Ireland without any problem under article 8.
    Who's saying he could declare for Ireland without any problem under article 8 though? Taking all of the eligibility regulations into consideration, I don't think he'd be eligible at all to declare for Ireland.

    It's clear that the purpose of article 7 is to prevent the easy acquisition (for a senior player) of the right to declare for another country, via acquiring their nationality and secondly it's to prevent the exploitation of minors. In practice, the criteria in article 7 is not used against bona fide dual nationals (as Sepp would call them). Imo Noe's children would be bona fide dual nationals.
    I agree that the purpose of article 7 is to ensure or prove, as far as FIFA are concerned, that there is a "clear connection"/"genuine link" between a player who has newly acquired a nationality and his adopted nation or the nation of which he is now a member. I don't necessarily see why Baba's hypothetical kids would be regarded by FIFA as having a clear connection though. I don't think it's self-evident, even if it might seem intuitive.

    (For what it's worth, nationality from birth is already deemed to constitute a manifestation of a genuine connection. I'm just emphasising that point whilst I'm on the topic as you often find NI fans claiming northern-born Irish players like James McClean have no genuine connection to the FAI due to the fact these players don't have a familial territorial connection to the 26 counties, as if their birth nationality was somehow meaningless.)

    A dual national like Noe Junior, born in England to an Irish citizen, could be selected and play for Ireland. He does not need to satisfy Article 7 criteria. He does not need residence requirements in order to acquire his Irish nationality. He has a birth right to dual nationality, a nationality which is activated after the foreign birth is registered . Noe Junior then presents his irish passport to the uefa match official as evidence.
    There are other criteria besides residence requirements in article 7 though. Why would Baba's hypothetical kid be exempt? Are you arguing that all players who activate Irish nationality via registration of their birth in the FBR on account of an Irish national parent born outside Ireland or an Irish national grandparent born in Ireland are exempt from the application of article 7?

    Wouldn't such a contention contradict your view - expressed previously on the forum - that players such as Alex Bruce and Adam Barton, who would have activated their birth-right (to use your terminology) to Irish nationality - on account of a northern-born grandparent - upon registration of their births in the FBR, qualify to play for Ireland by virtue of satisfying article 7(c) because FIFA apply a purposive approach to the interpretation of that rule in relation to such players that construes the entire island of island to be the "territory" of the FAI?

    If it's not your contention, why the seeming distinction between Baba's hypothetical son and Bruce or Barton in terms of the respective eligibility articles through which they allegedly qualify - that being article 5 alone for Baba's hypothetical son, supposedly, but article 7 for Bruce and Barton - despite the fact they all would have had their births registered on the FBR in order to acquire Irish nationality (effective from the date of registration)?

    Should Noe Junior first play for England underage at a competitive level, being a dual national he can still declare for Ireland under the auspices of article 8, as long as he was an Irish national before he played for England in an official (underage) competition.
    True, but simply being an Irish national doesn't cut it. There are additional criteria that must be satisfied for those who, in the eyes of FIFA, have acquired their nationality after birth. Irish nationality via registration on the FBR is deemed effective (by the Irish government) from the date of registration, so I don't see any reason why FIFA would view things differently.

    I even doubt that part in bold is strictly applied by FIFA, I have my suspicions that Ciaran Clark had not activated his Irish nationality before he played for England underage., but it's just a doubt.
    Ciaran Clark is an Irish national from birth. His mother Peggy is from Drumshambo in Leitrim.

    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    As I wrote, the conditions of article 8 and FIFA practice proves my interpretation.
    I don't see any precedent to support your opinion Danny.
    I don't fully grasp why article 8 is supposed to be relevant here, nor do I see how it proves your interpretation.

    Which practice of FIFA proves your interpretation? I'm not aware of any precedent that practically proves this matter one way or the other, as I'm not aware of any case of a player who would share the same circumstances as Baba's hypothetical kids. In the absence of an analogous precedent, we can surely only speculate or theorise based on our interpretation of the regulations in question and the insight of an academic in the field of sporting eligibility.

    Article 8 expressly acknowledges that a player may make a request to change association "[i]f [that] Player has more than one nationality, or if [that] Player acquires a new nationality, or if [that] Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality". The conditions in article 8 are therefore subject to satisfaction of the relevant criteria relating to these distinctions in status outlined in the three preceding articles relating to eligibility.

    Just because Noe Junior has to have his birth registered, does not make him ineligible to represent Ireland unless he satisfies article 7 conditions.
    One his birth is registered he would be activating his birthright and become a bona fide dual national, not acquiring a new nationality.
    Article 7 is aimed at restricting players ability to exploit loopholes and declare for a new country that they previously had no connection with.
    If that interpretation was correct, then you're saying players like Tee (who, via registration, is essentially activating a birth-right) or Scott Hogan, just to use another recent example, qualify to play for Ireland via article 5 alone without the invocation of article 7? That can't be right though, as what would be the point of litterae (a), (b) and (c) in article 7 then? Those litterae all relate to nationality inherited by birth of the subject, a parent or a grandparent, but FIFA clearly still regard such inheritance as a new acquirement, seeing as the title of the article in question is "Acquisition of a new nationality".

    Simply enjoying what you refer to as a birth-right (which I understand to be the same thing as what Gerard-René de Groot and Yann Hafner refer to as "option right" or "right of option") to apply (or register) for a particular nationality doesn't exempt a player from having to satisfy article 7. If that was the case, then you could potentially have, say, fifth or sixth generation Irish nationals being eligible to play for Ireland under article 5 if their nationality was passed on from generation to generation (all subjects born outside Ireland) via FBR registration simply because they enjoyed a birth-right to apply.

  21. #2679
    Capped Player
    Joined
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    13,845
    Thanks
    1,495
    Thanked 2,338 Times in 1,592 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    Who's saying he could declare for Ireland without any problem under article 8 though? Taking all of the eligibility regulations into consideration, I don't think he'd be eligible at all to declare for Ireland.
    You have to show evidence to support your contention that article 8 is not what it says, otherwise a person could rightly claim that you're making up stuff.

    Ciaran Clark is an Irish national from birth
    I had already edited my post a day before to correct my reference to Ciaran.


    I don't know about Scott Hogan or others with a grandparent connection to irish citizenship, who belatedly decide to acquire irish citizenship
    Don't they talk about being able to qualify for Irish citizenship due to the Irish grandparent connection? and therefore they can declare for Ireland?
    No Irish passport, no play.

    I'm claiming that a Noe Junior born abroad to an Irish citizen such as Noe Baba, could use his Irish nationality to be selected at youth level for Ireland and play his way through to the seniors.
    And should he have first played for England at underage level, all that he needs is to demonstrate (with evidence) is that he had Irish nationality before he played for England.
    In other words, he would have to have activated his Irish citizenship before playing for England.

    I don't fully grasp why article 8 is supposed to be relevant here, nor do I see how it proves your interpretation.
    Because, according to Article 8, should a Noe Junior have first played for England underage, he could switch his allegiance to Ireland.
    And that makes a monkey out of saying Noe Junior could not have first chosen to play for Ireland in the manner I described.


    Article 8 expressly acknowledges that a player may make a request to change association "[i]f [that] Player has more than one nationality, or if [that] Player acquires a new nationality, or if [that] Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality". The conditions in article 8 are therefore subject to satisfaction of the relevant criteria relating to these distinctions in status outlined in the three preceding articles relating to eligibility.
    You are inventing conditions without any evidence.
    Article 8.1 does not refer to other articles, it is a separate article of eligibility. It is a complete article of eligibility.
    Under article 8, a dual national player can chose to switch to play for the country of his 2nd nationality as long as he was a national of that country before he played for his first country. If a dual national player satisfies that clear condition, he can make the switch.
    There is no add on, no addendum, no annex anywhere, to contradict that.
    If you claim what is written in the article 8 is not the complete truth, that there are other conditions at play, then you have to provide evidence to prove it.
    You just can't make a wild statement and demand that I disprove it
    Last edited by geysir; 14/10/2017 at 1:28 PM.

  22. #2680
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,104
    Thanks
    3,205
    Thanked 3,560 Times in 2,185 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    You have to show evidence to support your contention that article 8 is not what it says, otherwise a person could rightly claim that you're making up stuff.
    Haha, I'm saying it is what it says. In my opinion, it's you who is saying something contrary to what it says without providing evidence to support your contention.

    You have claimed Baba's hypothetical son would be eligible to play for Ireland under article 8. I'm simply saying I don't see how that's possible if he doesn't also satisfy the article 7 criteria (seeing as his FBR-registered Irish nationality will be effective post-birth and article 7 is referenced in article 8).

    I'll quote the relevant part of article 8 for convenience:

    "8. Change of Association

    1.

    If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another Country of which he holds nationality, subject to the following conditions:

    a) He has not played a match (either in full or in part) in an Official Competition at “A” international level for his current Association, and at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an Official Competition for his current Association, he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play.

    b) He is not permitted to play for his new Association in any competition in which he has already played for his previous Association."

    Perhaps I'm wrong, but isn't the highlighted bit there a reference to article 7 (i.e an acknowledgement of its ongoing or continuous applicability when a player wishes to switch association)? If so (and that's what I've been assuming), I would read from it that article 8 does not ignore or disregard article 7; rather, I would read from it that they both operate in tandem and that any player who wishes to make a switch must be eligible for his desired new association under one of the articles 5-7 before being entitled to switch, so long as he also satisfies the criteria in article 8.

    Are you contending that a player who wishes to switch association is exempt from the application of articles 5-7 when seeking to have his switch approved under article 8?

    If you go back and look at the Daniel Kearns case, the panel outlined the following in respect of article 8 (or what was then article 18) at paragraph 76:

    "[Article 18's] first paragraph begins with the following three sentences: “If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality”. In other words, Article 18 identifies the various categories of individuals who are allowed to change associations notwithstanding the Article 15 par. 2 [now Article 5 par. 2]. In such a context, it is obvious that the first sentence deals with players who have dual (or more) nationality, i.e. are in a situation falling within Article 15 [now Article 5], the third sentence with players who fall under Article 16 [now Article 6] and the second sentence with players who fall under Article 17 [now Article 7]."

    Paragraph 82 (in the section explaining or outlining "[t]he proper construction of the FIFA Regulations regarding the eligibility of players to play in association teams") outlines the following in respect of the same article:

    "By way of exception to the general principle set out in Article 15 par. 2, Article 18 authorizes players to operate a switch from one association for which they are eligible under Articles 15 to 17 to another association. It provides that a player with dual (or more) nationality (“If a Player has more than one nationality” – Article 15 par. 1) or with “shared nationality” (“or if a Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality” – Article 16), or players who “acquires a new nationality” (Article 17), may change association on only one occasion subject to the three following requirements:

    • “He has not played a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition at “A” international level for his current Association”.
    • “… at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for his current Association, he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play”.
    • “He is not permitted to play for his new Association in any competition in which he has already played for his previous Association”."

    Those passages support my contention that article 8 refers back to the previous three articles and contradicts your contention that articles 5-7 are irrelevant when it comes to the processing of a switch under article 8.

    Furthermore, CAS judged Kearns, who had switched from the IFA to the FAI after having played competitively for the IFA at under-19 level, eligible to play for the FAI on the basis of his satisfying both articles 5 (then 15) and 8 (then 18) in tandem with one another. The panel stated the following at paragraph 78:

    "[Kearns'] situation, with respect to his Irish nationality, is not governed by Article 16, but by the general principle set forth by Article 15 par. 1 of the said Regulations."

    And the following at paragraph 90:

    "In any event, the alleged tacit agreement may not be used to defeat the claim of Mr Kearns, who was of course not a party to any such agreement and who, in any event, is entitled to exercise his rights as provided under Article 15 and 18 of the 2009 Application Regulations."

    In my opinion, this again undermines your contention that articles 5-7 are somehow ignored or irrelevant when a player makes a request to switch association under article 8. They can't be irrelevant seeing as article 8 expressly refers back to them.

    In my opinion, if Baba's hypothetical son had played for England in his youth, had acquired his Irish citizenship before playing for England and could satisfy article 7 in respect of playing for Ireland (although I don't think his hypothetical circumstances would actually enable that, but let's pretend they do for the sake of argument), then, according to a strict application of the rules, I believe he would then be OK to switch to Ireland. I don't see why he would be exempt from article 7 if he has acquired a new nationality post-birth (seeing as nationality is effective from the date of registration for FBR-registered persons) to complement his birth nationality (which would be British, presumably, considering he was born in England to an Irish citizen with permanent residence status).

Similar Threads

  1. Potentially eligible players thread
    By TheOneWhoKnocks in forum Rubbish
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 26/01/2017, 7:43 PM
  2. Potentially eligible players thread
    By liamoo11 in forum Rubbish
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 19/08/2015, 11:27 PM
  3. Potentially eligible players thread
    By liamoo11 in forum Rubbish
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 19/08/2015, 5:39 PM
  4. Former LOI Players / Managers in the News Thread?
    By abcd in forum Premier & First Divisions
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05/11/2012, 1:27 PM
  5. Former players thread
    By pineapple stu in forum UCD
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: 05/08/2009, 1:30 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •